Moving Beyond Carbon Neutrality in Food & Ag

[00:00:00] I feel like we're in a period of time of green wishing.

[00:00:04] You know, we always been concerned about green washing

[00:00:08] and I think now we're in this period of green wishing

[00:00:11] where everyone's making these incredible climate commitments

[00:00:15] very narrowly focused on carbon.

[00:00:18] I just don't know how real a lot of these wishes are.

[00:00:22] Like what's the plan? What's the strategy?

[00:00:24] How are we going to get there?

[00:00:27] Welcome to New Food Order, our nuanced investigation into the business of tackling our climate and social crises through food and agriculture.

[00:00:42] I'm Louisa Bowen-Taylor, head of media and research at AgFunder,

[00:00:45] one of the most active FoodTech and AgTech BC investors and editor of our new site AFN.

[00:00:51] And I'm Danielle Gould, founder of FoodTech Connect,

[00:00:54] the community for food innovation best known for our weekly newsletter

[00:00:58] that tracks all the business tech and investment trends from farm to fork globally.

[00:01:02] And we're taking you with us on a learning and unlearning journey to unearth

[00:01:07] how we might redesign business and finance to have maximum positive impact for people and our planet.

[00:01:13] So Louisa, you're going to be joining me tomorrow, but I am already here at Expo West

[00:01:18] and I am coming off of Climate Day, which was just incredible to connect with the community

[00:01:25] and to hear from so many people who are enjoying the podcast.

[00:01:29] Oh no way! That's amazing.

[00:01:31] Yeah, so many people tell me that it's their favorite new podcast

[00:01:35] and tell me about all the ways where they're listening to it,

[00:01:38] all the things that they're learning about, ideas for new episodes, sponsor ideas.

[00:01:43] So we're getting ready to wrap up season one, but who knows,

[00:01:48] we might have some special episodes for you all.

[00:01:51] Oh, that's exciting and how was your talk?

[00:01:53] My talk was great. I was talking about alternative business models

[00:01:58] and how regenerative design is so much more than sourcing

[00:02:02] and it was really well received.

[00:02:04] Fantastic, well done you!

[00:02:06] So last week we had our second regenerative agriculture roundtable

[00:02:12] where we had a great debate amongst our panelists

[00:02:15] about the challenges farmers are currently facing

[00:02:18] and how regenerative agriculture is progressing,

[00:02:21] talking through its failings and its successes and so on.

[00:02:24] So if you haven't had a chance, please do go and give it a listen.

[00:02:27] There were some great opinions and stories

[00:02:29] and it really was an enlightening discussion to round out that topic for this series.

[00:02:35] And so today we're continuing on with another roundtable,

[00:02:38] but this time we're talking to our guests about a really hot-button topic, carbon neutrality.

[00:02:44] So no doubt you're probably aware that there have been numerous net zero commitments

[00:02:49] being made by companies globally.

[00:02:53] And what that means for those of you who don't know is that a company is saying

[00:02:57] they will ensure their operations are not net emitters of greenhouse gas emissions

[00:03:03] with a predominant focus on carbon dioxide.

[00:03:06] But as it looks like we're going to miss the Paris climate agreement targets

[00:03:11] and emissions continue to climb,

[00:03:13] Louisa and I have been asking ourselves, is carbon neutral even enough?

[00:03:18] Yes, Danielle and I became increasingly frustrated by seeing all of these announcements

[00:03:23] that companies were making about hitting carbon neutrality by 2040 or something similar to that.

[00:03:30] But if you check over on Agfond & News, we've actually started doing these check-ins

[00:03:34] with some of these companies to hold them to account for some of these targets

[00:03:38] and make sure they're not just making these announcements in a way

[00:03:41] that's sort of greenwashing their consumer base.

[00:03:44] But equally, is carbon neutrality even enough?

[00:03:48] Because we're increasingly finding out ways that companies could even go further

[00:03:52] and become carbon negative.

[00:03:54] And we're really happy that since we first mused on this topic together,

[00:03:57] I think it was about a year ago,

[00:03:58] that this conversation about beyond carbon neutral is really picking up pace.

[00:04:02] And even beyond going carbon negative,

[00:04:05] how can you have ecosystem services that support more things like

[00:04:10] water health, soil health, community well-being.

[00:04:15] There's a lot of conversation around carbon myopia

[00:04:18] and that's something that we definitely dig into in this episode.

[00:04:21] And to do that, we brought together some of the leading thinkers

[00:04:25] in carbon neutrality in the food system for a roundtable discussion

[00:04:30] on the pros and cons of targeting carbon neutrality

[00:04:34] and how the industry is doing.

[00:04:36] In this episode, we speak with

[00:04:38] Danielle Nirenberg, president of Food Tank,

[00:04:41] Debbie Reed, executive director of the Ecosystem Services Market Consortium,

[00:04:47] Kathleen Merrigan, former United States Deputy Secretary of Agriculture

[00:04:53] and current executive director for the Sweat Center for Sustainable Food Systems,

[00:04:58] Evo Dane, CEO of Climate Farmers

[00:05:02] and Julie Kuhnen, director of sustainability for Oatley North America.

[00:05:07] And some of the topics we cover include,

[00:05:09] is carbon neutrality enough or do we need to look beyond it?

[00:05:12] Is it detrimental to have such a strong focus on carbon

[00:05:15] and is the field detracting from other important areas

[00:05:18] of the regenerative and sustainable landscape like Danielle just referenced?

[00:05:22] Are carbon credits and the overall certification of processes

[00:05:25] misleading and potentially damaging to the regenerative process?

[00:05:29] How can corporations and startups work better together in the sector?

[00:05:33] How are farmers and production workers affected by the push for carbon neutrality

[00:05:37] and the overall process?

[00:05:39] And how might we design these systems to ensure that those farmers benefit?

[00:05:43] If you know anybody who is interested in the topic of carbon or sustainability,

[00:05:50] please be sure to share this episode with them.

[00:05:53] And if you enjoy the episode, please be sure to subscribe, rate and review.

[00:06:06] So in one minute, tell us very briefly what your name is,

[00:06:09] your title, your organization,

[00:06:11] and if you're a food, what food would you be and why?

[00:06:16] And Danny, I'm going to start with you.

[00:06:18] No pressure there. Hi, I'm Danny Nirenberg.

[00:06:21] I am president and co-founder of FoodTank.

[00:06:24] We're a research and advocacy organization with kind of a simple mission

[00:06:28] to highlight stories of hope and success in food systems,

[00:06:31] both internationally and domestically,

[00:06:33] and inspire, motivate and activate people to make change.

[00:06:37] If I were a food, I think I would be a sweet potato

[00:06:41] because they taste really good, they're versatile,

[00:06:44] they can be used in a range of things,

[00:06:47] and that's kind of what I do.

[00:06:49] I can do a range of things.

[00:06:52] I agree, I can attest to that.

[00:06:55] I love that. Thanks so much.

[00:06:57] Okay, I'm just going down my little squares here

[00:07:00] and I'm going to go for you Debbie please.

[00:07:02] Hi, thank you. Debbie Reid.

[00:07:04] I'm the executive director of the ecosystem service market consortium,

[00:07:07] which is an ecosystem service market for food and beverage companies

[00:07:11] to achieve their scope three,

[00:07:13] supply chain emission reductions from agriculture.

[00:07:16] We also run a research consortium

[00:07:19] that does innovation, invest in new tools and technologies

[00:07:22] to improve our ability to quantify carbon greenhouse gases,

[00:07:26] water quality, water quantity, and biodiversity from agriculture.

[00:07:30] If I were a food, I would be a pizza because it's my favorite pizza

[00:07:35] and it has all the essential elements of bread, cheese,

[00:07:39] and some vegetables thrown in on top.

[00:07:42] Great, sounds good.

[00:07:44] Okay, next Kathleen please.

[00:07:46] I'm Kathleen Mirigan.

[00:07:48] I am a professor at Arizona State University

[00:07:51] where I run a research center,

[00:07:53] the sweetie center for sustainable food systems.

[00:07:56] I'd be chocolate because everybody would love me.

[00:07:59] Absolutely. Well, I'm sure they do already.

[00:08:03] Okay, Ivo, you please next.

[00:08:06] I'm Ivo, one of the co-founders and CEO of Climate Farmers.

[00:08:10] Really glad to be here.

[00:08:12] What a great group of people.

[00:08:14] Climate Farmers, our mission statement is to build

[00:08:17] the infrastructure for scaling regenerative agriculture.

[00:08:20] We're mainly focused on Europe with that

[00:08:23] and looking at the questions of knowledge transmission

[00:08:26] in regenerative agriculture.

[00:08:29] How do I implement regenerative agriculture

[00:08:32] both on the individual farm and within supply webs?

[00:08:35] And the question of how do we finance the transition

[00:08:38] to regenerative agriculture,

[00:08:40] which of course includes a lot of quantifying impacts

[00:08:43] and the whole question of how do we put value

[00:08:46] on positive externalities in agriculture.

[00:08:50] And on top of that, we're doing a lot of advocacy work

[00:08:53] in industry and policy in Europe.

[00:08:56] I think if I were or I think the vegetable

[00:08:59] I would want to be after two weeks of travels

[00:09:02] and conferences and all of that.

[00:09:05] I think you're a really nice carrot.

[00:09:07] I think it's sort of my what I would aspire to be right now.

[00:09:11] Sounds good.

[00:09:13] Last but not least Julie.

[00:09:15] Hi everybody, I'm Julie Cunin.

[00:09:17] I'm the director of sustainability for Oatly North America.

[00:09:21] Oatly is the oldest and largest oat milk company in the world.

[00:09:25] And our mission is to make it easy for people

[00:09:28] to eat deliciously and nutritionally

[00:09:31] without recklessly taxing the planet's resources.

[00:09:34] And I think if I were to be a food,

[00:09:37] I would be a nice bowl of pesto pasta

[00:09:40] both very, very comforting food and also a little bit spicy.

[00:09:43] Love that. That's also my son's favorite, favorite food.

[00:09:46] He literally just asked me for that before we started recording.

[00:09:49] Okay great.

[00:09:51] So first question kind of quite big picture.

[00:09:55] As you all know, there is this huge push right now

[00:09:59] from brands, governments, technologies, investors and every

[00:10:03] and so on to go net zero.

[00:10:05] A recent stat that I saw was that more than 20%

[00:10:08] of the world's largest companies now have a science-based target

[00:10:13] on carbon and there's the Glasgow Financial Alliance for Net Zero

[00:10:17] which has gathered 450 financial institutions across 45 countries

[00:10:22] representing $130 trillion in assets

[00:10:25] and they're all saying they're going to help transition

[00:10:28] the global economy to net zero by 2050.

[00:10:31] So it all sounds quite exciting and transformational stuff

[00:10:34] but why is carbon the focus?

[00:10:37] Why is carbon neutrality the gold standard that they are pursuing?

[00:10:42] I want to even go to a topic before your question really.

[00:10:47] I feel like we're in a period of time of green wishing.

[00:10:51] You know, we always been concerned about green washing

[00:10:54] and I think now we're in this period of green wishing

[00:10:57] where everyone's making these incredible climate commitments

[00:11:01] very narrowly focused on carbon which goes to your question

[00:11:06] but I just don't know how real a lot of these wishes are.

[00:11:11] Like what's the plan? What's the strategy?

[00:11:13] How are we going to get there?

[00:11:15] And so I'm just in my own work trying to see who's behind the curtain.

[00:11:21] How is this all going to work?

[00:11:23] Because otherwise we're not going to make progress.

[00:11:26] We're many, many conference of the parties, cops in history now

[00:11:32] and we're not seeing reductions as we had hoped.

[00:11:36] So I just throw that out for conversation.

[00:11:39] I know our conversations really about carbon

[00:11:42] but I also say we need to have some real measurement,

[00:11:47] some real strategy or all of this is just talk.

[00:11:51] Yeah, I completely agree with Kathleen

[00:11:53] that there is a lot of green wishing going on

[00:11:56] and I think the focus on carbon is in so many ways too narrow

[00:12:01] and for me commitments that are being made for 2050,

[00:12:04] that's too far away.

[00:12:06] I feel like the world will be on fire by then.

[00:12:08] So we need urgent action now

[00:12:11] and those commitments need to be made in a way

[00:12:14] that are strategic and implementable

[00:12:17] and work for farmers and eaters and businesses

[00:12:20] and policy makers alike

[00:12:22] but we don't have any time to waste here.

[00:12:24] So telling me that a company is going to make

[00:12:26] whether it's a big beverage company

[00:12:29] or a big ad company

[00:12:31] that they're making commitments for 2050,

[00:12:33] I think it's far too late.

[00:12:35] We need something to happen now

[00:12:37] and I think we're sacrificing

[00:12:41] all of the other things

[00:12:43] that are necessary to think about

[00:12:45] in our food and agriculture systems

[00:12:47] by so narrowly focusing on carbon.

[00:12:49] We're not thinking about youth and women

[00:12:51] and inherent racism

[00:12:53] that has affected our food systems

[00:12:55] both domestically and internationally.

[00:12:57] So I would like a more holistic way

[00:12:59] of thinking about these things

[00:13:01] that does include carbon, understands the urgency

[00:13:04] and gives people hope

[00:13:06] that there are things that can be done

[00:13:08] but that green wishing

[00:13:10] and I love that term Kathleen,

[00:13:12] I'm going to steal it and use it all the time.

[00:13:14] I think that's what we're in that period of time right now

[00:13:17] but we need to get out of it

[00:13:19] and actually do something.

[00:13:21] Kathleen, love the term green wishing

[00:13:23] and Danny thank you for that.

[00:13:25] I think that was going to be one of our follow-up questions

[00:13:27] and so maybe to throw out there

[00:13:29] why are people going after carbon neutrality

[00:13:32] and is that enough?

[00:13:34] So Debbie, I know you're doing a ton of work on this.

[00:13:37] So I think the question was asked

[00:13:39] why are companies doing this right?

[00:13:41] Climate change is the greatest challenge of our time

[00:13:43] and if we don't tackle it

[00:13:45] with the speed and the scale

[00:13:47] that scientists have indicated is necessary

[00:13:49] we are going to lose agriculture production

[00:13:51] in many of the world's regions right?

[00:13:53] Ag is a business done outdoors

[00:13:55] so that is imperative.

[00:13:57] It has implications obviously far beyond that

[00:13:59] we do need to know what

[00:14:01] is reducing carbon

[00:14:03] in agricultural systems

[00:14:05] and what the other implications of that are

[00:14:07] whether or not there are unintended consequences

[00:14:09] on other natural resources

[00:14:11] like water, biodiversity etc

[00:14:13] right? I would say

[00:14:15] why companies are investing

[00:14:17] in net zero commitments

[00:14:19] which is not the same as carbon neutrality

[00:14:21] right?

[00:14:23] If you take on an SBTI commitment

[00:14:25] you take on a commitment to net zero

[00:14:27] which goes to neutrality

[00:14:29] and then below neutrality

[00:14:31] it literally means

[00:14:33] you reduce beyond zero

[00:14:35] because we know every sector

[00:14:37] every corporation

[00:14:39] every government has to do that

[00:14:41] for us to really

[00:14:43] try to maintain either 1.5

[00:14:45] or 2 degrees Celsius change right?

[00:14:47] So companies are doing that

[00:14:49] and the whole point I think of the science

[00:14:51] based commitments is

[00:14:53] they look at their inventories the same

[00:14:55] way a country does

[00:14:57] and then assess where

[00:14:59] and how

[00:15:01] they actually make the reductions

[00:15:03] so I work with a lot of global food

[00:15:05] and beverage companies who have taken on that

[00:15:07] commitment and they are investing

[00:15:09] millions of dollars in trying to meet

[00:15:11] those commitments now

[00:15:13] by 2025

[00:15:15] by 2030 and by 2050

[00:15:17] SBTI tells them

[00:15:19] how they can do it for instance

[00:15:21] they cannot buy offsets until

[00:15:23] they have achieved neutrality

[00:15:25] and then they can use the offsets

[00:15:27] to go beyond so there are systems

[00:15:29] in place there are reporting

[00:15:31] and accounting structures and these companies

[00:15:33] are really working quite hard

[00:15:35] to achieve that

[00:15:37] I would say the other thing is that

[00:15:39] in our program we don't just

[00:15:41] focus on improved

[00:15:43] soil carbon or reduced greenhouse gases

[00:15:45] we simultaneously generate

[00:15:47] water quality, water quantity

[00:15:49] and we're working to develop biodiversity

[00:15:51] credits and quantification as well

[00:15:53] because we do have to know

[00:15:55] the impacts of everything

[00:15:57] we are doing that is focused on

[00:15:59] climate change which is imperative

[00:16:01] but also the impacts

[00:16:03] on those other natural resources

[00:16:05] water is the next best imperative

[00:16:07] right that we have to tackle

[00:16:09] some companies, some countries

[00:16:11] some states are already starting

[00:16:13] to do it but we have to do all of them simultaneously

[00:16:15] so we are working

[00:16:17] with our companies to do it and I have to say

[00:16:19] they're struggling because

[00:16:21] we have to do it collectively

[00:16:23] and right

[00:16:25] no one company, no one actor

[00:16:27] got us into this problem

[00:16:29] that we have

[00:16:31] and no one company, no one actor

[00:16:33] no one action can get us out

[00:16:35] so we're a collective environment

[00:16:37] actually trying to achieve that

[00:16:39] and it's hard and it's messy

[00:16:41] but we are seeing progress

[00:16:43] and I think that is incredibly promising

[00:16:45] so Debbie is what you're saying

[00:16:47] that the focus on carbon

[00:16:49] right now is because that's the easiest thing

[00:16:51] to

[00:16:53] garner people around

[00:16:55] and you have to start with one thing

[00:16:57] I don't think it's the easiest thing

[00:16:59] I think it's the hardest when you're not looking

[00:17:01] at energy, when you're looking

[00:17:03] at biological, agricultural

[00:17:05] managed ecosystems for instance

[00:17:07] it's hard right but

[00:17:09] we are spending a lot of time measuring it

[00:17:11] I think the initial focus

[00:17:13] on carbon is because

[00:17:15] of the climate imperative

[00:17:17] our companies know that they can't exist

[00:17:19] if they can't continue to source their ingredients

[00:17:21] and their commodities

[00:17:23] and their products in 5 or 10 years

[00:17:25] some of them are already having problems doing that

[00:17:27] right so

[00:17:29] tackling climate but

[00:17:31] ensuring that we're also looking at

[00:17:33] water use, water quality

[00:17:35] biodiversity at

[00:17:37] the same time is

[00:17:39] the imperative I don't think we can tackle them

[00:17:41] one at a time I would say carbon is

[00:17:43] the leading indicator right now

[00:17:45] because it is the one

[00:17:47] we have to tackle with the greatest speed

[00:17:49] and scale. Julie

[00:17:51] as a brand that is working

[00:17:53] in this space that has

[00:17:55] really started to focus a lot

[00:17:57] of your marketing and

[00:17:59] labeling on pack around

[00:18:01] carbon you know would love to

[00:18:03] hear what your process

[00:18:05] has been at Oatly around this

[00:18:07] why you started with carbon

[00:18:09] and why carbon is a gold standard

[00:18:11] for you and if you're thinking about

[00:18:13] expanding into a more holistic

[00:18:15] look at more ecosystem services

[00:18:17] and social. Yeah sure thank you

[00:18:19] I mean I have to agree with what Kathleen

[00:18:21] and Danny were saying earlier

[00:18:23] first of all we don't have time to wait until 2050

[00:18:25] the climate emergency is now

[00:18:27] and there's this urgency to act now which is

[00:18:29] why as a company we've set

[00:18:31] our ambitions for 2029

[00:18:33] which is almost a sort of provocation that says

[00:18:35] even the standard sort of 2030 commitment

[00:18:37] not quick enough so

[00:18:39] just to say that our ambitions are set around

[00:18:41] 2029 you know

[00:18:43] we're pretty wary of terms like climate neutral

[00:18:45] and climate positive they sound

[00:18:47] really nice to consumers but they really

[00:18:49] don't necessarily mean that the

[00:18:51] products or services in question are actually

[00:18:53] good for the environment you know or even that

[00:18:55] they're having a sort of immediacy in terms

[00:18:57] of climate positive impact

[00:18:59] you know I think we also think that

[00:19:01] companies use those terms

[00:19:03] you know a lot of them seem to think that they can manage

[00:19:05] those emissions by paying for reductions

[00:19:07] in systems outside their supply chains

[00:19:09] and that is not the way that Oli is going about it

[00:19:11] so our goal really

[00:19:13] is to have a net positive impact on the

[00:19:15] planet so that's not just carbon

[00:19:17] and we can talk about the other areas certainly

[00:19:19] of ecosystem health, of water quality

[00:19:21] with biodiversity but also sort of a strong

[00:19:23] social and farmer commitment which I'd love

[00:19:25] to talk about but we really think that

[00:19:27] the best way we can do that as a business

[00:19:29] is through our products and I think that that is a very

[00:19:31] important distinction. There is

[00:19:33] one way of going about this

[00:19:35] which is to take whatever is produced on this planet

[00:19:37] and to try to make it less bad

[00:19:39] and then there are a lot of companies

[00:19:41] and Oli thinks that it is one of them

[00:19:43] that is trying to make positive change

[00:19:45] through our products so research

[00:19:47] has shown that in general dairy

[00:19:49] based cows dairy based

[00:19:51] products have a higher impact on the

[00:19:53] planet than plant-based alternatives

[00:19:55] so our focus

[00:19:57] is to create positive climate change

[00:19:59] or positive climate impact I should say

[00:20:01] through an expansion of the swap

[00:20:03] from or the switch from dairy

[00:20:05] to oat milk

[00:20:07] in our case and in doing that

[00:20:09] we will have a net climate emissions reduction

[00:20:11] and then we also

[00:20:13] commit to very transparently reducing

[00:20:15] the footprint of our value chain

[00:20:17] and the transparency part is really part

[00:20:19] of that and that's where Danielle your question about

[00:20:21] labeling comes in. We think that

[00:20:23] companies should be very honest and

[00:20:25] transparent and tell people

[00:20:27] tell their consumers what their footprints

[00:20:29] are whether that's a climate footprint

[00:20:31] or another kind of footprint in absolute

[00:20:33] numbers be honest about

[00:20:35] where that is not an ideal situation

[00:20:37] and then tell people what it is that you're going

[00:20:39] to do to reduce that impact so

[00:20:41] you know so we have this overall

[00:20:43] conversion commitment to convert

[00:20:45] dairy users to plant users

[00:20:47] and we have a calculation for how much climate

[00:20:49] we think our carbon emissions that's going to save

[00:20:51] and then we're taking steps to reduce

[00:20:53] impact through our supply chains

[00:20:55] and that is I think a key thing

[00:20:57] is that it's within what some people sometimes call

[00:20:59] insetting it's within our own supply chain

[00:21:01] that we're seeking those reductions.

[00:21:03] What's working on those actions

[00:21:05] that you're taking within your supply chains

[00:21:07] what actions have you taken and what's working?

[00:21:09] Yeah so I mean for example

[00:21:11] last year we have two factories

[00:21:13] that manufacture our products in the United States

[00:21:15] and last year both of them sourced

[00:21:17] 100% renewable electricity

[00:21:19] to power those manufacturing operations

[00:21:21] so that's like a tangible

[00:21:23] change. We have just launched

[00:21:25] a major new initiative around regenerative

[00:21:27] agriculture to source

[00:21:29] our strategic ingredients of which oats

[00:21:31] is obviously a key one

[00:21:33] to a standard that will

[00:21:35] both reduce net greenhouse gas

[00:21:37] emissions in the system

[00:21:39] improve water quality and biodiversity levels

[00:21:41] and very importantly is focused

[00:21:43] on viability of those systems for farmers

[00:21:45] so we have a commitment

[00:21:47] to making sure that farmers alone

[00:21:49] don't take on the risks in those systems

[00:21:51] and that companies like us through making

[00:21:53] markets available and through de-risking

[00:21:55] those practices are co-investing

[00:21:57] basically in the transition that's needed in food systems.

[00:21:59] Those are two examples

[00:22:01] we also have taken major

[00:22:03] major steps to reduce our water

[00:22:05] withdrawal footprint. You know obviously

[00:22:07] we're a beverage company a food and beverage company

[00:22:09] a lot of our products come in liquid form

[00:22:11] and so we've taken tangible measures

[00:22:13] and I can go into the details

[00:22:15] if you like at individual factories

[00:22:17] to improve water efficiency and to reduce

[00:22:19] the amount of water we take out

[00:22:21] we withdraw from the system to make our products

[00:22:23] those are just some examples.

[00:22:25] Thank you so much. I would love to drill into

[00:22:27] those examples but maybe a little bit later

[00:22:29] I would love to come to you Evo

[00:22:31] and tell us your thoughts

[00:22:33] about this focus on carbon

[00:22:35] and carbon neutrality

[00:22:37] and where you think the focus should lie

[00:22:39] if not there.

[00:22:41] Absolutely thank you and very much agree

[00:22:43] with all the great points that were brought

[00:22:45] before. I would just like to

[00:22:47] be a bit more specific with some

[00:22:49] of the aspects and some of the

[00:22:51] wordings we're using some of it was mentioned already

[00:22:53] carbon neutral is not the same

[00:22:55] as climate neutral

[00:22:57] is not the same as a science based target

[00:22:59] right and for some of these

[00:23:01] terms were not even

[00:23:03] 100% clear on what they actually

[00:23:05] mean. There's not always

[00:23:07] very clear definition

[00:23:09] for it so I think this is something important

[00:23:11] to keep in mind as we use them

[00:23:13] as if sort of we had a common agreement

[00:23:15] often.

[00:23:17] Carbon neutral

[00:23:19] in the

[00:23:21] food and agriculture space

[00:23:23] would probably be way too little

[00:23:25] not only because we're excluding

[00:23:27] the water footprint and the biodiversity footprint etc

[00:23:29] but if we're only talking about

[00:23:31] climate

[00:23:33] the problem in food and agriculture is not

[00:23:35] carbon the problem is the problem

[00:23:37] methane and nitrous oxide much more than

[00:23:39] carbon so we really

[00:23:41] need to talk about climate neutrality

[00:23:43] if we believe that

[00:23:45] something that we can do

[00:23:47] so first of all

[00:23:49] we need to reduce

[00:23:51] the relevant greenhouse gases

[00:23:53] and I think it is really important

[00:23:55] that we emphasize this. We

[00:23:57] talk a lot about sort of then

[00:23:59] implementing good projects

[00:24:01] in which we then can have positive

[00:24:03] impacts on biodiversity

[00:24:05] on other sort of

[00:24:07] regeneration aspects

[00:24:09] but first of all we really need to

[00:24:11] reduce emissions

[00:24:13] and I think sometimes this isn't

[00:24:15] emphasized enough

[00:24:17] I just come from Davos

[00:24:19] from the World Economic Forum

[00:24:21] and while yes everybody says that

[00:24:23] the conversation is very quickly about

[00:24:25] buying offsets

[00:24:27] and just want to emphasize we really

[00:24:29] need to reduce emissions first

[00:24:31] otherwise we don't even need

[00:24:33] to talk about it. Debbie made that point also

[00:24:35] very clearly

[00:24:37] and I think we need to talk about

[00:24:39] what do we do to sort of

[00:24:41] improve the situation

[00:24:43] that we still have there is a certain amount

[00:24:45] of emissions are still going to be there

[00:24:47] likely and then we need to talk

[00:24:49] about which projects we implement

[00:24:51] and in those of course

[00:24:53] we need to talk about so called

[00:24:55] co-benefits which by now

[00:24:57] I think it is also clear

[00:24:59] that those are not co-benefits

[00:25:01] like so biodiversity, water

[00:25:03] social aspects are not really

[00:25:05] carbon capture and nature based solutions

[00:25:07] on the contrary

[00:25:09] carbon is a co-benefit

[00:25:11] of these aspects

[00:25:13] because we cannot

[00:25:15] we cannot capture carbon

[00:25:17] in nature based solutions

[00:25:19] without looking at ecosystem restoration

[00:25:21] if we think that we can

[00:25:23] capture carbon

[00:25:25] and only focus on carbon without

[00:25:27] taking into account ecosystem restoration

[00:25:29] or regeneration we are going to put

[00:25:31] that carbon at risk so we risk

[00:25:33] carbon again we have

[00:25:35] hundreds of examples of that in the

[00:25:37] reforestation space and we begin seeing

[00:25:39] that as well in the soil

[00:25:41] carbon space so it is really

[00:25:43] important carbon capture

[00:25:45] is a co-benefit

[00:25:47] of ecosystem restoration

[00:25:49] and then we have a chance

[00:25:51] of durability in

[00:25:53] nature based solutions only

[00:25:55] if we talk about ecosystem restoration

[00:25:57] and the aspect that Juli said before

[00:25:59] viability for the farmers

[00:26:01] the economic

[00:26:03] regeneration if you want to call it

[00:26:05] like that as well. So Ivo, first of

[00:26:07] all thank you so much because I think

[00:26:09] that

[00:26:11] we really need to have

[00:26:13] common definitions that we are all on the same

[00:26:15] page so I really appreciate you

[00:26:17] saying that and I was fortunate

[00:26:19] enough to join you last year

[00:26:21] in Germany where we

[00:26:23] got to meet in person which is beautiful

[00:26:25] for the climate farmers congress

[00:26:27] where the actual

[00:26:29] goal of that congress was to

[00:26:31] come up with a manifesto

[00:26:33] around regeneration

[00:26:35] and you have built this

[00:26:37] beautiful community across Europe

[00:26:39] of regenerative

[00:26:41] farmers that are working on

[00:26:43] just the things that you're talking about so maybe

[00:26:45] if you could take a minute to just kind of share

[00:26:47] what that definition of regeneration

[00:26:49] is and how

[00:26:51] the farmers that you're working with

[00:26:53] are thinking about carbon and

[00:26:55] ecosystem restoration

[00:26:57] and community based

[00:26:59] regeneration.

[00:27:01] Absolutely yes and let me take

[00:27:03] that opportunity to say this

[00:27:05] conference is going to be repeated

[00:27:07] in October, November this year and I really

[00:27:09] want to invite all of you to join

[00:27:11] us there so this is the annual

[00:27:13] European conference in which

[00:27:15] the different

[00:27:17] experts and practitioners come together

[00:27:19] and sort of have these important conversations

[00:27:21] on you know what are we

[00:27:23] actually talking about here.

[00:27:25] We, well you know the call for

[00:27:27] definition of regenerative agriculture

[00:27:29] has been there for quite a while and continues

[00:27:31] being there

[00:27:33] and we were tempted

[00:27:35] to try that

[00:27:37] last year at the conference

[00:27:39] and then realized that it wouldn't

[00:27:41] be the right approach for

[00:27:43] concepts so complex as

[00:27:45] regenerative agriculture

[00:27:47] if we try and press that into

[00:27:49] a form too quickly we're

[00:27:51] likely going to lose a lot of its meaning

[00:27:53] and so what we did

[00:27:55] instead is to

[00:27:57] take a step towards it in that

[00:27:59] last conference and get

[00:28:01] to at least a common understanding

[00:28:03] of regeneration. We haven't yet gotten

[00:28:05] to what is regenerative agriculture

[00:28:07] we have gotten to what do we understand

[00:28:09] regeneration to be

[00:28:11] and I think the important

[00:28:13] aspect there and this is a lot based on

[00:28:15] the work of Carol Sanford I think

[00:28:17] is

[00:28:19] the difference between sort of

[00:28:21] us coming in with a certain

[00:28:23] idea such as putting more

[00:28:25] carbon into an ecosystem

[00:28:27] and the question what

[00:28:29] is this ecosystem aiming to develop

[00:28:31] towards and how can we support that

[00:28:33] so rather than having to focus

[00:28:35] on us anthropocentric

[00:28:37] having it eco-centric and asking

[00:28:39] a question how can we support

[00:28:41] the natural development here

[00:28:43] and this really makes

[00:28:45] a big shift in the thinking

[00:28:47] and I think it's a really important shift as well

[00:28:49] that we are trying to bring into a lot of the work we do

[00:28:51] with the

[00:28:53] agri-food industry

[00:28:55] and not so much

[00:28:57] say well regeneration is basically

[00:28:59] we bring

[00:29:01] simplified carbon by diversity water

[00:29:03] and then it's regenerative

[00:29:05] this is already a step ahead from saying

[00:29:07] okay we're going to do no till and then that's

[00:29:09] regenerative but the real question is

[00:29:11] in that specific context

[00:29:13] that this specific

[00:29:15] farmer is in what

[00:29:17] is it that we can do

[00:29:19] to support and

[00:29:21] is there something that we can measure

[00:29:23] towards that but we cannot

[00:29:25] set specific targets

[00:29:27] to say well you know we

[00:29:29] want to put that much carbon into the ground

[00:29:31] because there's

[00:29:33] a big risk then again that we

[00:29:35] are going to

[00:29:37] have that as an anthropocentric

[00:29:39] rather than eco-centric.

[00:29:41] You've laid out that this is very

[00:29:43] complex in these big

[00:29:45] systems we try and simplify

[00:29:47] make everything super easy

[00:29:49] so Julie I want to take it back

[00:29:51] to you to talk a little bit

[00:29:53] if you can walk us through how you are

[00:29:55] all thinking about this and these complexities

[00:29:57] at

[00:29:59] Oatly and then I want everyone to be listening

[00:30:01] because would love for everyone

[00:30:03] to be able to respond

[00:30:05] and kind of push and see what you think

[00:30:07] about how Oatly's approaching

[00:30:09] it and would love to kind of

[00:30:11] dig in using Oatly that's made these major

[00:30:13] commitments to understand that so Julie

[00:30:15] maybe if we could start with you and then everyone

[00:30:17] feel free to jump in and respond

[00:30:19] to what Julie is saying Julie.

[00:30:21] I mean I want to start also just by

[00:30:23] reaffirming several of the points that Ivo made

[00:30:25] which I thought were really important

[00:30:27] in common parlance I think

[00:30:29] the folks who work in this space understand very well

[00:30:31] that carbon does not equal climate

[00:30:33] but I think sort of the common parlance

[00:30:35] and the sort of common consumers do not

[00:30:37] necessarily understand the importance of focusing

[00:30:39] on other greenhouse gases

[00:30:41] but I think the call out to methane emissions

[00:30:43] certainly that is a large part

[00:30:45] of the basis by which we would make

[00:30:47] an argument that plant-based foods

[00:30:49] have a lower climate footprint than

[00:30:51] their animal based equivalents it is

[00:30:53] in large part both because of the

[00:30:55] methane production in animals

[00:30:57] and obviously all of the other kind of

[00:30:59] feed production systems but this issue

[00:31:01] of nitrogen I'm so glad that Ivo brought that up

[00:31:03] we are taking a very

[00:31:05] special look actually at nitrogen

[00:31:07] and at the role of nitrogen

[00:31:09] we have been working with the

[00:31:11] producers in agricultural systems

[00:31:13] and have really called that out as a big part

[00:31:15] of what we're focusing on. We've done

[00:31:17] some research that's not specific to our

[00:31:19] supply chain but just sort of research

[00:31:21] in the agricultural systems that we

[00:31:23] participate in and we generally

[00:31:25] think that in Oatly's case

[00:31:27] about half of the climate footprint

[00:31:29] of what we produce comes from

[00:31:31] the agricultural system so comes from

[00:31:33] the production of the ingredients that go

[00:31:35] into our product so that's obviously

[00:31:37] why we are spending so much time focusing

[00:31:39] on our role in a regenerative agricultural system

[00:31:42] but within that we also recognize and we

[00:31:44] estimate that about half of the footprint

[00:31:46] in the agricultural system is from

[00:31:48] nitrogen and I think that most

[00:31:50] companies that are even working in the

[00:31:52] ag space are so focused

[00:31:54] on you know soil carbon sequestration

[00:31:56] and reduction of carbon emissions

[00:31:58] and I'm using carbon specifically in this case

[00:32:00] through reduction in tail

[00:32:02] reduction of on-farm machinery all of

[00:32:04] which of course is important to do

[00:32:06] is to make sure that the

[00:32:08] carbon emissions are missing half of the

[00:32:10] piece and I think half of the piece

[00:32:12] really is nitrogen the over application

[00:32:14] of nitrogen fertilizer which is

[00:32:16] itself of course a fossil fuel derived

[00:32:18] synthetic input so it has a

[00:32:20] carbon footprint from the petroleum

[00:32:22] production but then the over

[00:32:24] application which of course just has

[00:32:26] devastating effects on water quality

[00:32:28] through you know leaching and

[00:32:30] emissions through the release of nitrous

[00:32:32] oxide so I just I really want to emphasize

[00:32:34] that we are committed to sort of investing

[00:32:36] in trying to figure out how do you

[00:32:38] support farmers to reduce that cycle

[00:32:40] of like dumping a whole bunch of

[00:32:42] potentially unnecessary nitrogen

[00:32:44] onto their crops so

[00:32:46] taking a step back up to what

[00:32:48] Danielle you were just asking me

[00:32:50] so right like we make an agricultural

[00:32:52] product right I mean we make

[00:32:54] opiates foods and beverages

[00:32:56] we recognize that we are a major

[00:32:58] actor in an agricultural system

[00:33:00] and we are asking we're coming

[00:33:02] to a question what is the role of a company

[00:33:04] like Oatly in helping to

[00:33:06] support a transition to something

[00:33:08] that is beyond sustainable right

[00:33:10] and we think of the word regenerative

[00:33:12] as meaning if you think of

[00:33:14] sustainability and the concept of

[00:33:16] sustainable as a sort of do no harm

[00:33:18] right like fix whatever you broke

[00:33:20] then the concept of regeneration

[00:33:22] goes beyond that to

[00:33:24] leaving behind something that is better than the way that you found it

[00:33:26] so

[00:33:28] what we did as a company is we went

[00:33:30] through a sort of several month

[00:33:32] long process internal

[00:33:34] to the company with some external

[00:33:36] experts to define what

[00:33:38] do we mean like we made a commitment

[00:33:40] to say in 2029

[00:33:42] we're going to source 100% of our

[00:33:44] strategic ingredients agricultural

[00:33:46] ingredients primarily in a sustainable

[00:33:48] way so if we don't think that the word

[00:33:50] sustainable captures what we mean what is it that

[00:33:52] we really mean by that and we

[00:33:54] have come out with a definition that will frame

[00:33:56] our work globally and I'm going to

[00:33:58] actually share that definition with you because I think

[00:34:00] it points again to some of the things that

[00:34:02] Evo said because it's an outcome

[00:34:04] based approach it is not we're not dictating practices

[00:34:06] to farmers we're not telling people what they

[00:34:08] should do we're not the farmers we don't

[00:34:10] know that so we are saying that we're

[00:34:12] committing to an investing

[00:34:14] in regenerative agricultural systems

[00:34:16] that will reduce net greenhouse gas

[00:34:18] emissions so the broader definition

[00:34:20] beyond carbon improve ecosystem

[00:34:22] function and build farm

[00:34:24] viability and resilience

[00:34:26] so that may not sound like anything earth

[00:34:28] shattering but to me it has a couple of really

[00:34:30] important elements one is that we see ourselves

[00:34:32] as committing to a system and understanding

[00:34:34] that the system has a complexity

[00:34:36] and innumerable stakeholders

[00:34:38] and we have a specific role to play in it we need

[00:34:40] to figure out how to play that role the best we can

[00:34:42] and then we're investing

[00:34:44] in systems that will yield certain results that we want

[00:34:46] so certain outcomes and certain impacts

[00:34:48] without showing up at the door

[00:34:50] and saying do grow it like this

[00:34:52] and we'll buy it from you or demonstrate

[00:34:54] to me that you've got these on acre practices

[00:34:56] and we'll buy it from you we're just

[00:34:58] we're taking like a more holistic and probably

[00:35:00] like a longer road approach to that

[00:35:02] within that definition

[00:35:04] we have a number of specific

[00:35:06] outcomes just take

[00:35:08] since we're talking about carbon right now

[00:35:10] under reduced net greenhouse gas

[00:35:12] emissions of course we

[00:35:14] want to see carbon sequestered and of course

[00:35:16] we want to see reduction of on farm emissions

[00:35:18] and we want to see reduced nitrous oxide emissions

[00:35:20] I think the last thing I'll

[00:35:22] say and then maybe pause for people to jump

[00:35:24] into the conversation

[00:35:26] is that I mentioned earlier that we have

[00:35:28] this pretty important focus on building

[00:35:30] farm viability and resilience

[00:35:32] and we chose those words very carefully

[00:35:34] and we mean those in both the ecological

[00:35:36] sense and also in the social sense

[00:35:38] so we want to play a role

[00:35:40] where we can enable farmers

[00:35:42] to try out new practices

[00:35:44] to reward farmers for taking those risks

[00:35:46] and to offer consistent

[00:35:48] markets so that they feel secure

[00:35:50] and we're doing that over the long term

[00:35:52] and we want to be able to build generational

[00:35:54] security in farm families

[00:35:56] so that at the end of the day they're actually able

[00:35:58] to pass their farms from one generation to the next

[00:36:00] should they choose to

[00:36:02] and that is not a current element in the agricultural system

[00:36:04] that we have at least in this country

[00:36:06] and so those are a number of the

[00:36:08] sort of framing elements

[00:36:10] I'll just close this part by just saying

[00:36:12] we've just launched this, this is now the framework

[00:36:14] that is guiding a number of pilot

[00:36:16] investments around the world

[00:36:18] and we're looking at

[00:36:20] what does that mean, like how do we show up for farmers

[00:36:22] what does that mean in terms of the financial systems

[00:36:24] that we provide

[00:36:26] the markets that we provide

[00:36:28] but we have done this very deliberately

[00:36:30] such that it will be able to scale over time

[00:36:32] to be incorporated into our supply chain

[00:36:34] and I do think that that is

[00:36:36] another really important distinction

[00:36:38] that a lot of companies are investing in projects

[00:36:40] that don't actually dock into their supply chain

[00:36:42] because it's really hard to do

[00:36:44] we are going to try to do it

[00:36:46] but that's what we're going to try to get done

[00:36:48] Julie, so before we open it up

[00:36:50] to a response from other people

[00:36:52] I just wanted to ask you how do you ensure

[00:36:54] that this is not green-lishing

[00:36:56] what does the measurement look like right now

[00:36:58] and when you say that

[00:37:00] you're not sure about it, you're going to try to figure it out

[00:37:02] what also, what is that process

[00:37:04] of you figuring it out look like

[00:37:06] yeah, I mean so we have

[00:37:08] a set of KPIs that we have said that we want to measure

[00:37:10] we're actually testing of right

[00:37:12] there are a lot of tools out there

[00:37:14] like a school farm tool, there's a number of blockchain

[00:37:16] enabled companies, there's on-farm

[00:37:18] questionnaires, there's

[00:37:20] different structures, different reporting schemes

[00:37:22] a lot of them exist

[00:37:24] we're actually just piloting a number of those different

[00:37:26] tools, partners, methodologies

[00:37:28] right now to see like what works the best

[00:37:30] I don't think it's going to be one tool in every place

[00:37:32] but just to say the tools

[00:37:34] can vary, the KPIs will be consistent

[00:37:36] so we have actual like measures

[00:37:38] we're collecting baseline data

[00:37:40] that's always a very important thing to have

[00:37:42] you don't know what you're measuring unless you're starting

[00:37:44] so baseline data and then

[00:37:46] measurement of outcome against that over time

[00:37:48] using a potential set of tools

[00:37:50] we will then begin to measure

[00:37:52] of course the proportion that is in our supply chain

[00:37:54] I mean that's going to be obviously the next step

[00:37:56] yeah, so

[00:37:58] consistent definition

[00:38:00] global framework, a set of pilot projects

[00:38:02] across our different

[00:38:04] markets so we're active in Asia

[00:38:06] and North America and Europe so a set of pilot projects

[00:38:08] that will then measure a consistent set of

[00:38:10] outcomes KPIs, right? Key performance indicators

[00:38:12] and then we'll

[00:38:14] against a baseline year and then we'll take that information

[00:38:16] and use that to then

[00:38:18] build projects that go beyond pilot to scale

[00:38:20] because otherwise you get stuck in this like

[00:38:22] you're constantly just doing pilot projects

[00:38:24] and you never get to the real issue of scale

[00:38:26] Debbie!

[00:38:28] So when we do projects

[00:38:30] and I think this is the way it has to be accounted for

[00:38:32] we only work in supply chain

[00:38:34] emission reporting right?

[00:38:36] You have to account for all sinks

[00:38:38] and all sources of greenhouse gases

[00:38:40] so when I say carbon

[00:38:42] I mean carbon nitrous oxide, methane

[00:38:44] and CO2

[00:38:46] right? Including from energy

[00:38:48] so in our system

[00:38:50] we actually at the farm and field

[00:38:52] scale in every project

[00:38:54] we launch we do a baseline

[00:38:56] where is the producer

[00:38:58] starting from? We work

[00:39:00] with them and provide technical assistance

[00:39:02] on in their production system

[00:39:04] whether it's raising or

[00:39:06] livestock or cropping systems

[00:39:08] what are the new practices or systems

[00:39:10] changes they can undertake

[00:39:12] and then every single year

[00:39:14] we quantify the change

[00:39:16] at the field and the farm scale

[00:39:18] for every farmer and rancher

[00:39:20] in our project and we calculate

[00:39:22] the uncertainty associated with this

[00:39:24] so we built our system

[00:39:26] with the entire

[00:39:28] ag supply chain and value chain and we work

[00:39:30] in North America specifically

[00:39:32] and started building it in

[00:39:34] 2018 and have been

[00:39:36] pylink testing it since

[00:39:38] 2019 so we have

[00:39:40] a national scale

[00:39:42] and it's harmonized system

[00:39:44] for quantifying all of the

[00:39:46] greenhouse gases right?

[00:39:48] Including nitrous oxide, including methane

[00:39:50] CO2 and

[00:39:52] increases in soil carbon

[00:39:54] and water quality

[00:39:56] and water quantity and of course we're working on

[00:39:58] biodiversity but you have

[00:40:00] to do that and you have to calculate

[00:40:02] the uncertainty so all of our companies are doing that

[00:40:04] within their

[00:40:06] supply chains

[00:40:08] because that is the only way you can make

[00:40:10] claims in scope 3 supply chains

[00:40:12] for these companies

[00:40:14] so these investments really

[00:40:16] are happening and are being quantified

[00:40:18] on an annual basis

[00:40:20] and sometimes you see improvements

[00:40:22] and sometimes you don't

[00:40:24] right? but the important thing

[00:40:26] is that we are quantifying

[00:40:28] because we have to know

[00:40:30] every given production system

[00:40:32] and in every given region

[00:40:34] what moves the needle and what doesn't

[00:40:36] and sometimes you don't get

[00:40:38] benefits right? sometimes it takes

[00:40:40] 3 to 5 years to see those

[00:40:42] benefits so we support

[00:40:44] our farmers and ranchers through

[00:40:46] that risk profile

[00:40:48] if you will when they change their practices

[00:40:50] to adopt new systems or new

[00:40:52] changes and we do it with

[00:40:54] the corporates right? because the corporates

[00:40:56] are the ones who are right now

[00:40:58] providing a high value

[00:41:00] demand signal that we

[00:41:02] can utilize to actually finance

[00:41:04] these transitions to regenerative

[00:41:06] agriculture within the system

[00:41:08] so I appreciate

[00:41:10] all of the discussion on this and I do

[00:41:12] I just want to make the point

[00:41:14] this is happening now at scale

[00:41:16] with some companies but we are doing it

[00:41:18] collectively with multiple

[00:41:20] companies at the table because again

[00:41:22] no one company can make the investments

[00:41:24] in the infrastructure

[00:41:26] in the programming in the tools and technologies

[00:41:28] to quantify these

[00:41:30] multiple benefits

[00:41:32] and do it at the speed and the scale that

[00:41:34] we need so we have built

[00:41:36] this public-private partnership we're a non-profit

[00:41:38] really just trying to scale

[00:41:40] outcomes and I think that is

[00:41:42] one of the most important things right?

[00:41:44] is working across the entire supply

[00:41:46] chain including agriculture producers

[00:41:48] in the actual development

[00:41:50] of the programming

[00:41:52] is the only way we are going to be able

[00:41:54] to scale these outcomes

[00:41:58] Louisa

[00:42:00] at FoodTech Connect we see a lot of

[00:42:02] entrepreneurs and innovators working to transform

[00:42:04] the food system

[00:42:06] we see loads of ag funder too but the thing

[00:42:08] is most of them struggling with the same

[00:42:10] problem funding

[00:42:12] exactly thankfully

[00:42:14] one of our very kind supporters has been able

[00:42:16] to help with that foodshot

[00:42:18] is an integrated capital platform

[00:42:20] that catalyzes innovation for a healthier

[00:42:22] more sustainable and more equitable food system

[00:42:24] yes

[00:42:26] FoodShot leverages resources from

[00:42:28] investors around the world to provide equity

[00:42:30] non-dilutive funding

[00:42:32] and post investment capabilities to innovators

[00:42:34] and they're currently

[00:42:36] looking for new entrepreneurs working

[00:42:38] to innovate soil, precision protein

[00:42:40] and bioactive foods

[00:42:42] you can apply for equity funding

[00:42:44] via their website foodshot.org

[00:42:46] Louisa

[00:43:04] we spend a lot of time together

[00:43:06] thinking and speaking about products that are

[00:43:08] both good for us and the planet

[00:43:10] yes we do

[00:43:12] well I want to tell you about one of the show's

[00:43:14] partners New Hope Network

[00:43:16] who helps support these kinds of products

[00:43:18] don't they run those big conferences like

[00:43:20] Natural Products Expo West and East

[00:43:22] they do indeed and as well as running

[00:43:24] events New Hope is a

[00:43:26] media and business intelligence company

[00:43:28] that covers natural product

[00:43:30] trends, industry insights

[00:43:32] and marketplace data

[00:43:34] that help educate the industry about key issues

[00:43:36] things like regenerative agriculture

[00:43:38] sustainability, responsible

[00:43:40] sourcing and a whole lot more

[00:43:42] and they're proud sponsors of New Food Order

[00:43:44] because they want to help support conversations

[00:43:46] that bring radical transparency to our food system

[00:43:48] that advocate for using

[00:43:50] businesses of force for good

[00:43:52] and that drive the changes we want to see in the world

[00:43:54] New Hope is inviting us all to join

[00:43:56] the movement at its Natural Products Expo

[00:43:58] and on NewHope.com

[00:44:06] can you tell us

[00:44:14] who some of the corporates are that you're working with

[00:44:16] Debbie and how does it work when you say they're collaborating

[00:44:18] are they

[00:44:20] signing to the same charter, are they on calls

[00:44:22] still together like how does it you know exactly

[00:44:24] work so we started

[00:44:26] our public-private partnership in 2019

[00:44:28] and members literally co-invested

[00:44:30] in the build-out

[00:44:32] and the development and the pilot testing

[00:44:34] of the program so they pay

[00:44:36] membership fees that we invest

[00:44:38] in the infrastructure

[00:44:40] in the tools and technologies

[00:44:42] in the pilot programs etc

[00:44:44] right so that's one thing

[00:44:46] the brands that we work with

[00:44:48] are a lot of major food and beverage companies

[00:44:50] so General Mills,

[00:44:52] Denone, Cargill

[00:44:54] McDonald's, Nestle

[00:44:56] a lot of brands like that

[00:44:58] we have over 80 members

[00:45:00] that include

[00:45:02] agricultural groups, land-grant universities

[00:45:04] technical companies

[00:45:06] like conservation

[00:45:08] and environmental groups

[00:45:10] like TNC and World Wildlife Fund

[00:45:12] and we literally do all of the projects

[00:45:14] collectively

[00:45:16] and sometimes a company

[00:45:18] a single company will lead on a project

[00:45:20] and others will join

[00:45:22] sometimes multiple companies

[00:45:24] lead on a project

[00:45:26] and others join

[00:45:28] because while one company might be focused

[00:45:30] on wheat in the Great Plains

[00:45:32] for instance

[00:45:34] others might be focused on corn and soy

[00:45:36] in the Midwest

[00:45:38] and crop rotations don't

[00:45:40] right, crop rotations mean

[00:45:42] that you're not getting any one commodity

[00:45:44] off the land

[00:45:46] whether it's beef or wheat or almonds

[00:45:48] we have almond pilots

[00:45:50] so we have to account

[00:45:52] for multiple commodities

[00:45:54] within any plot of land

[00:45:56] and then we often find different buyers

[00:45:58] because what they are looking

[00:46:00] for within their supply chain

[00:46:02] might be something that is

[00:46:04] cropped on a portion of land

[00:46:06] only once every two or three years

[00:46:08] so that collective

[00:46:10] enabling environment means

[00:46:12] that we can actually

[00:46:14] ensure that an investment

[00:46:16] by one company can be shared

[00:46:18] by others if in fact

[00:46:20] we're looking at multiple crops

[00:46:22] or multiple commodities

[00:46:24] or including crops that only come up

[00:46:26] once every three

[00:46:28] sometimes we have crops that are only planted

[00:46:30] every five years

[00:46:32] so we've built it so that

[00:46:34] we can accommodate everything

[00:46:36] that is being produced

[00:46:38] and ensure that producers get the transition

[00:46:40] but also get paid

[00:46:42] for the transition and the outcomes

[00:46:44] at the end because that's the most critical portion

[00:46:46] Kathleen I'd love to come to you

[00:46:48] and sort of get your

[00:46:50] response and your

[00:46:52] feedback on the approaches

[00:46:54] that both Julie and Debbie have taken

[00:46:56] you know you've obviously spent years

[00:46:58] working on these issues

[00:47:00] and looking at potential solutions

[00:47:02] so what do you think of their approaches

[00:47:04] and is there anything

[00:47:06] you would suggest to do differently

[00:47:08] or any particular advice

[00:47:10] I currently live in Arizona

[00:47:12] it's a desert

[00:47:14] it's a totally different place

[00:47:16] than where I grew up in Massachusetts

[00:47:18] near the Vermont border

[00:47:20] or in the Midwest where we have those

[00:47:22] really rich soils that capture

[00:47:24] carbon well if farming is done

[00:47:26] properly

[00:47:28] so I just want to add my voice

[00:47:30] to the

[00:47:32] chorus here that we really need

[00:47:34] to look beyond carbon

[00:47:36] that we really need to be considering

[00:47:38] overall ecosystem services

[00:47:40] because I'm looking at

[00:47:42] rangeland in my own research

[00:47:44] and I'm looking at what the diversity

[00:47:46] is in the

[00:47:48] the ground cover

[00:47:50] and I know that

[00:47:52] even the best of farmers

[00:47:54] in my area are not going to be able to capture

[00:47:56] carbon in the same way

[00:47:58] that someone can in Ohio

[00:48:00] but there's certainly

[00:48:02] things that they can and should be doing

[00:48:04] to be

[00:48:06] the most sustainable

[00:48:08] the most regenerative, the most organic

[00:48:10] you put in the word

[00:48:12] farmer that they can be

[00:48:14] so to that I will say

[00:48:16] in my own business life

[00:48:18] because I have a side hustle

[00:48:20] besides my role as a university

[00:48:22] professor, I work as a

[00:48:24] venture partner for a venture capital

[00:48:26] firm that's based in Europe called

[00:48:28] Astonora Ventures

[00:48:30] and we certainly have

[00:48:32] KPIs that we

[00:48:34] use and that

[00:48:36] we ask all our portfolio companies

[00:48:38] to address

[00:48:40] carbon is one of them

[00:48:42] but also water

[00:48:44] and biodiversity

[00:48:46] and health

[00:48:48] among others

[00:48:50] and so I really do think that we need to have

[00:48:52] that broader look and Astonora

[00:48:54] is now joining

[00:48:56] the work that's

[00:48:58] ongoing that I would put under

[00:49:00] this headline, true cost

[00:49:02] accounting of food

[00:49:04] trying to have a very broad

[00:49:06] understanding of what it costs to put

[00:49:08] food on the plate

[00:49:10] and a lot of us are talking about the four

[00:49:12] capitals

[00:49:14] and saying that social

[00:49:16] and human capital

[00:49:18] besides natural and

[00:49:20] produced capital

[00:49:22] social and human capital are often

[00:49:24] times overlooked and I know at the start

[00:49:26] of our conversation, Danny mentioned

[00:49:28] women, well women are

[00:49:30] the majority of farmers across

[00:49:32] the world and just thinking about

[00:49:34] what it means to empower them

[00:49:36] to be better land stewards

[00:49:38] through granting them

[00:49:40] land tenure rights

[00:49:42] and giving them access to education

[00:49:44] cannot be overlooked

[00:49:46] or even I think overestimated

[00:49:48] into its power. So I think

[00:49:50] we're now in this true cost accounting

[00:49:52] stage of things

[00:49:54] which I think is really great

[00:49:56] and I'm loving the conversation

[00:49:58] but bottom line is

[00:50:00] I just feel sorry for consumers out there

[00:50:02] I mean I love what Julie

[00:50:04] said in terms of what Otley's

[00:50:06] doing. I love

[00:50:08] what Debbie's doing with her consortium

[00:50:10] of companies

[00:50:12] but as the person who

[00:50:14] essentially wrote the law

[00:50:16] for national standards in the US

[00:50:18] and that's been

[00:50:20] I guess my life's work

[00:50:22] knowing how difficult it's been

[00:50:24] to get everybody on the

[00:50:26] same page around a definition

[00:50:28] of organic, get it

[00:50:30] embedded in federal law

[00:50:32] and have federal rules and have

[00:50:34] an enforcement system that people argue

[00:50:36] is not perfect, I'm one of them

[00:50:38] but that is

[00:50:40] pretty much the best eco

[00:50:42] label that we have

[00:50:44] globally I would argue

[00:50:46] I think we're a long

[00:50:48] ways off in regenerative

[00:50:50] because we're going to have to go company by company

[00:50:52] consortium by consortium

[00:50:54] NGO by NGO

[00:50:56] to say what's your standard

[00:50:58] how are you thinking about it

[00:51:00] I think it's a time of great creativity

[00:51:02] a time of great exploration

[00:51:04] and excitement and we all know

[00:51:06] that it's imperative

[00:51:08] that we move

[00:51:10] forward in different ways

[00:51:12] and try to save

[00:51:14] our planet and our people

[00:51:16] but I just don't know

[00:51:18] in the marketplace right now

[00:51:20] how to guide consumers

[00:51:22] in what's a very, very messy time

[00:51:24] it is a really messy time

[00:51:26] you brought up the topic of

[00:51:28] brainwashing, right

[00:51:30] and measurement is so

[00:51:32] key and what you have

[00:51:34] right now and it's the same

[00:51:36] right from my understanding

[00:51:38] this is actually how the organic standard

[00:51:40] was created that there was a lot of experimentation

[00:51:42] that was happening

[00:51:44] which was then formalized

[00:51:46] and so Kathleen

[00:51:48] in an ideal world like how should

[00:51:50] we be thinking about this process right now

[00:51:52] yeah that's a big question

[00:51:54] in an ideal world

[00:51:56] we would all sing one

[00:51:58] song we'd all have one standard

[00:52:00] with abilities

[00:52:02] to have it

[00:52:04] apply in particular places

[00:52:06] right you can't have one

[00:52:08] standard for the whole globe

[00:52:10] or one standard even for the united states

[00:52:12] because we know agriculture

[00:52:14] is a site

[00:52:16] specific challenge

[00:52:18] but right now we're all over

[00:52:20] the map ideally

[00:52:22] I think right now the only thing

[00:52:24] we can ask for is that

[00:52:26] all of those people

[00:52:28] all of my work all of your

[00:52:30] work all our panels work

[00:52:32] that we urge everyone to be very transparent

[00:52:34] that's the only thing that

[00:52:36] we have right now because we're in a time

[00:52:38] where people are

[00:52:40] moving around in definitions

[00:52:42] even in their own work

[00:52:44] they're changing in my

[00:52:46] true cost accounting work at the university

[00:52:48] we're trying to refine methodology

[00:52:50] around beef livestock systems

[00:52:52] and how we understand the true

[00:52:54] cost but we're learning

[00:52:56] as a team of people

[00:52:58] deeply engaged in the ranching

[00:53:00] of the western part of our country

[00:53:02] so I can't say that we

[00:53:04] figured it all out but in the meantime

[00:53:06] while we're searching

[00:53:08] we need to share out as much

[00:53:10] as we can put on

[00:53:12] paper put on our website

[00:53:14] what we're doing what we're thinking

[00:53:16] so that people who are

[00:53:18] our comparative shopping

[00:53:20] and looking for their own

[00:53:22] insights and ideas and how to do their work

[00:53:24] they can learn from

[00:53:26] us and we can learn

[00:53:28] from others so I think

[00:53:30] that's really important but going back

[00:53:32] to that poor consumer

[00:53:34] here's the lesson we learned from organic

[00:53:36] organic is actually

[00:53:38] really complex

[00:53:40] it's a gazillion standards

[00:53:42] right it's not just about

[00:53:44] soil it's not just about carbon

[00:53:46] it's

[00:53:48] a whole list of no's

[00:53:50] no's decides for the most part that are

[00:53:52] synthetic certainly no

[00:53:54] synthetic fertilizers no sewage sludge

[00:53:56] no anabox no hormones

[00:53:58] yabba dabbadoo right and then there are all

[00:54:00] the positives you must

[00:54:02] rotate crops you must do cover crops

[00:54:04] you must have stream buffers

[00:54:06] I mean I could go down the whole long list

[00:54:08] and what happens is you can't

[00:54:10] really summarize it

[00:54:12] in an elevator speech

[00:54:14] it's so complex that sometimes

[00:54:16] we lose the consumer even though

[00:54:18] there is agreement about organic

[00:54:20] and for the most part

[00:54:22] agreement globally

[00:54:24] on most aspects of organic but for

[00:54:26] the consumer it's just sort of

[00:54:28] overwhelming when you get into all those details

[00:54:30] and so a lot of

[00:54:32] leaders in industry have

[00:54:34] really come down to a message around

[00:54:36] no pesticides as the

[00:54:38] message that most resonates

[00:54:40] with consumers so if you go

[00:54:42] to organic voices

[00:54:44] website for example

[00:54:46] it's all about the no chemicals

[00:54:48] in organic

[00:54:50] that's what they've decided

[00:54:52] if we have to boil it down

[00:54:54] to a pithy little statement

[00:54:56] that's what we're going with

[00:54:58] so I think as we go into these

[00:55:00] new definitional challenges

[00:55:02] we want to

[00:55:04] do two things simultaneously

[00:55:06] and I haven't figured out how to do it gang

[00:55:08] we want to embrace the complexity

[00:55:10] understand that we need to

[00:55:12] have all these different KPIs

[00:55:14] we need to understand what we're doing

[00:55:16] and it's full impact

[00:55:18] and at the same time

[00:55:20] deliver a message in the

[00:55:22] marketplace that consumers

[00:55:24] can understand

[00:55:26] so that they can vote with their fork

[00:55:28] and help us move forward

[00:55:30] Kathleen I could not be

[00:55:32] in more agreement

[00:55:34] and we're going to end our conversation

[00:55:36] around consumers

[00:55:38] I was fortunate enough through my consulting

[00:55:40] business alpha food labs

[00:55:42] we were able to do

[00:55:44] two major consumer insight

[00:55:46] studies around messaging

[00:55:48] around regenerative

[00:55:50] and the great

[00:55:52] news is that eaters are very

[00:55:54] excited about this

[00:55:56] and we have some ideas around

[00:55:58] how to frame it. The true cost accounting

[00:56:00] work is so important that being

[00:56:02] able to share

[00:56:04] and create working groups

[00:56:06] and places for people across the

[00:56:08] industry to convene is so

[00:56:10] important and Danny

[00:56:12] I mean you are

[00:56:14] just such a rock star

[00:56:16] with what you've been doing at food tank

[00:56:18] where you are

[00:56:20] you have this powerful media platform

[00:56:22] that's engaging eaters

[00:56:24] in a broad

[00:56:26] cross section of different people across

[00:56:28] the supply web in the industry

[00:56:30] but you're also

[00:56:32] which a lot of people may not know

[00:56:34] that you've convened these different kinds

[00:56:36] of working groups like your sustainability

[00:56:38] group that's actually creating a space

[00:56:40] for

[00:56:42] people who are working in sustainability

[00:56:44] and marketing communications

[00:56:46] to come together from some of the

[00:56:48] largest food companies

[00:56:50] in the world in order to do

[00:56:52] just that what Kathleen is doing

[00:56:54] and you know you've invited me to be a part

[00:56:56] of that and I've been so impressed

[00:56:58] so maybe if you could talk a little bit

[00:57:00] about what you're

[00:57:02] seeing with not just corporates

[00:57:04] but also start their startups in the ecosystem

[00:57:06] and what that process is like

[00:57:08] of convening

[00:57:10] all these different stakeholders

[00:57:12] and creating a safe space for them to share

[00:57:14] learn and grow together

[00:57:16] Thanks so much Danielle and I'm so glad

[00:57:18] you are part of our chief sustainability

[00:57:20] officer group which is made up

[00:57:22] of course of chief sustainability officers

[00:57:24] but also founders and CEOs

[00:57:26] and others who are working

[00:57:28] at small, medium and large scale companies

[00:57:30] really concerned about sustainability

[00:57:32] the interesting thing about the group

[00:57:34] some of these are from mission driven companies

[00:57:36] who are you know trying to

[00:57:38] do the right thing from the beginning

[00:57:40] others are really large corporations

[00:57:42] who are trying to sort of not backtrack

[00:57:44] but sort of catch up with those

[00:57:46] mission driven companies and do the right thing

[00:57:48] whether it's on carbon or diversity

[00:57:50] and equity and justice those kinds of things

[00:57:52] and so we've boot-tanked

[00:57:54] because of we like

[00:57:56] to convene, we like to have uncomfortable conversations

[00:57:58] I think these kinds of conversations

[00:58:00] that you all have convened today

[00:58:02] they're uncomfortable, they're messy as we said before

[00:58:04] but they need to be had

[00:58:06] and so bringing this group

[00:58:08] the CSO group together

[00:58:10] has been really enlightening for me

[00:58:12] personally because we bring in guest speakers

[00:58:14] we have case studies

[00:58:16] from companies portrayed

[00:58:18] and sort of you know they can debate them

[00:58:20] debate what's happening

[00:58:22] one of the things that we say and I know it's nerdy

[00:58:24] but it's really the spirit of co-operatition

[00:58:26] there's no pay to play

[00:58:28] to join this group I think that's very important

[00:58:30] people can speak openly it's Chatham House rules

[00:58:32] none of it's being recorded

[00:58:34] we reach out to companies later

[00:58:36] if we want to quote them in an article

[00:58:38] or that kind of thing but

[00:58:40] it's a very open space and I think

[00:58:42] we need more of those spaces to discuss

[00:58:44] these things in a way where we can make

[00:58:46] real change and I mean

[00:58:48] some of the things that I've heard already

[00:58:50] from Julie and others you know

[00:58:52] it's not just about what

[00:58:54] companies are doing around carbon but what are they doing

[00:58:56] around nitrogen and how much

[00:58:58] we've messed up our nitrogen cycle

[00:59:00] over the last 50, 60, 80 years

[00:59:02] at this point you know it's

[00:59:04] how we create that space

[00:59:06] for women and others

[00:59:08] you know black and brown folks

[00:59:10] and that Kathleen mentioned before

[00:59:12] it's how companies can

[00:59:14] include true cost accounting

[00:59:16] in their business operations

[00:59:18] I mean this is something that's growing

[00:59:20] and it's because of people like Kathleen

[00:59:22] who've been beating that drama

[00:59:24] on true cost accounting now for many years

[00:59:26] so I think it's

[00:59:28] enlightening companies that's having them

[00:59:30] enlighten themselves

[00:59:32] and learn from one another

[00:59:34] and I think many of the companies

[00:59:36] who are part of the group are coming

[00:59:38] to an understanding that what Debbie

[00:59:40] said before that the farmers

[00:59:42] they work with these are all food and beverage

[00:59:44] companies the farmers they work

[00:59:46] with need to be rewarded for the risks

[00:59:48] that they're taking and you know

[00:59:50] they need a stable market

[00:59:52] and know that companies

[00:59:54] are going to buy from them as

[00:59:56] only has really created those relationships

[00:59:58] with farmers and I know many

[01:00:00] folks have asked me from the group

[01:00:02] what does that look like how do I reach out to

[01:00:04] farmers Julie and others have done it

[01:00:06] so well I do want to mention

[01:00:08] you know something that Kathleen

[01:00:10] really emphasized and I know we're going to come back

[01:00:12] to it but recently food

[01:00:14] tank with members quoting members of that

[01:00:16] CSO group wrote a

[01:00:18] an article called in labels we trust

[01:00:20] right and part of that

[01:00:22] section on what want to lower your

[01:00:24] carbon footprint there's a label for that

[01:00:26] but those labels are so confusing

[01:00:28] and some of them work really

[01:00:30] well and some companies like

[01:00:32] new me tea and of course

[01:00:34] corn and others are really

[01:00:36] trying to do it the right way

[01:00:38] many many other companies

[01:00:40] are not and so that really needs

[01:00:42] to be addressed but that that convening

[01:00:44] part that bringing these companies together

[01:00:46] and giving them that open forum

[01:00:48] to exchange ideas and

[01:00:50] and to work not against

[01:00:52] one another if we if we are

[01:00:54] really concerned about and I know it's

[01:00:56] an overused word sustainability that

[01:00:58] it there's space for everyone

[01:01:00] to be more sustainable in this space

[01:01:02] it doesn't have to be something that like

[01:01:04] oh I'm competing against another company

[01:01:06] we can all learn from

[01:01:08] from one another so but thank you

[01:01:10] thanks for bringing that up and it's been a pleasure to have you part of the group

[01:01:12] and Danny I just love

[01:01:14] to follow up on that you know and I know

[01:01:16] these are sort of high enclosed doors off the record

[01:01:18] conversations but are there any particular

[01:01:20] areas or practices

[01:01:22] around going net zero

[01:01:24] around sustainability where you've

[01:01:26] noticed the most amount of disagreement

[01:01:28] between the companies

[01:01:30] on there and the people speaking all the most

[01:01:32] about agreement there are their roots to this

[01:01:34] that you think people are trying

[01:01:36] you know there's a big divergence

[01:01:38] in what they what the roots are

[01:01:40] I mean I think

[01:01:42] all of these companies are well meaning I

[01:01:44] I think there's more

[01:01:46] divergence than I probably know about

[01:01:48] and as I said we had we have guest

[01:01:50] speakers and I'm obsessed

[01:01:52] with Julia Collins from from Planet

[01:01:54] Forward and her her company's

[01:01:56] mission is really to create carbon neutrality

[01:01:58] and companies and where they can't

[01:02:00] create our carbon neutrality to have

[01:02:02] offsets that really are meaningful

[01:02:04] and and to to really

[01:02:06] make change and you know folks like

[01:02:08] Sam Cass and Justin K mine

[01:02:10] and Matt K mine would do good foods

[01:02:12] you know are really trying to

[01:02:14] do that sort of thing where they're

[01:02:16] you know they're they're reducing carbon emissions

[01:02:18] they're preventing food waste they're doing

[01:02:20] all of these things

[01:02:22] you know it's hard for me to know

[01:02:24] the from from these

[01:02:26] companies there I think they're all trying

[01:02:28] to do their best and I mean that

[01:02:30] from sincerely from the biggest to the smallest

[01:02:32] but not all of them are doing

[01:02:34] as much as they could be

[01:02:36] doing Kathleen do a follow-up there

[01:02:38] I'll share an observation

[01:02:40] so I do a lot of work with start

[01:02:42] ups and

[01:02:44] some of it's required by

[01:02:46] my firm that they are

[01:02:48] engaged in life cycle analysis

[01:02:50] and that they respond to all these

[01:02:52] KPIs but the great thing

[01:02:54] about small companies and

[01:02:56] startup companies is you have

[01:02:58] access to everybody

[01:03:00] everyone's involved engaged

[01:03:02] in whatever the challenges at the

[01:03:04] moment when you go to the really

[01:03:06] large companies I sometimes

[01:03:08] find that there's a real disconnect

[01:03:10] from the C-suite

[01:03:12] and what they're saying their sustainability

[01:03:14] or their carbon neutrality

[01:03:16] or their

[01:03:18] planet positive goals are

[01:03:20] and what's happening down

[01:03:22] deep in the bowels

[01:03:24] of the bureaucracy now I ran

[01:03:26] help run USDA and I know

[01:03:28] how difficult it is when you're in this

[01:03:30] large organization

[01:03:32] you just can't send out the memo

[01:03:34] and expect everybody to do what you ask

[01:03:36] but unless

[01:03:38] those sustainability

[01:03:40] challenges are translated

[01:03:42] down the

[01:03:44] hierarchy of these

[01:03:46] large organizations such that

[01:03:48] people know

[01:03:50] to make the right decisions

[01:03:52] for the planet

[01:03:54] actually improves

[01:03:56] their performance

[01:03:58] as viewed by their bosses

[01:04:00] as is compensated

[01:04:02] and rewarded in the system

[01:04:04] if that doesn't happen

[01:04:06] I think again we go back to that

[01:04:08] green wishing

[01:04:10] so the challenge is to get

[01:04:12] the C-suite

[01:04:14] to recognize

[01:04:16] that they're not just

[01:04:18] needing to talk to the outside world

[01:04:20] about what the company is doing

[01:04:22] but really talking

[01:04:24] internally and

[01:04:26] and really putting metrics internally

[01:04:28] that delivers

[01:04:30] again it's a mix it's a mix

[01:04:32] landscape out there but I think

[01:04:34] for the really large companies

[01:04:36] there's

[01:04:38] big success

[01:04:40] she said that was drawn something I was watching

[01:04:42] a talk that Paul Polman was giving

[01:04:44] the other day and he's actually going to be a guest

[01:04:46] on another episode that we're doing

[01:04:48] about planet positive business

[01:04:50] but he was talking about how a lot of

[01:04:52] businesses generally use their influence to

[01:04:54] reduce regulations or get special

[01:04:56] tax breaks or worse

[01:04:58] they say one thing about their own goals for

[01:05:00] say the climate but allow trade

[01:05:02] solutions representing them or lobbyists

[01:05:04] to fight against government action

[01:05:06] and I think it's interesting you're talking

[01:05:08] about this transparency piece so you can

[01:05:10] have these people joining groups

[01:05:12] and speaking publicly about intentions

[01:05:14] but then behind the scenes doing the exact

[01:05:16] opposite of that

[01:05:18] how you know I guess bringing more

[01:05:20] transparency into those

[01:05:22] behind the scenes workings would be some

[01:05:24] way to try and combat this

[01:05:26] is something that's going on but do you

[01:05:28] see this as being a rife issue

[01:05:30] you know Danny was saying that you think that

[01:05:32] anyone genuinely does want to do their best

[01:05:34] is it because these companies are just so large

[01:05:36] and cumbersome now that just changing those

[01:05:38] cogs that have been going for years and years

[01:05:40] and those lobbying interests and so on

[01:05:42] it's just so big to change direction

[01:05:44] quickly I mean

[01:05:46] what's the solution here

[01:05:48] let me just jump in quickly and say

[01:05:50] I am not saying that these

[01:05:52] people in the C-suite are

[01:05:54] disingenuous I think

[01:05:56] that most of the

[01:05:58] people I'm working with at that level

[01:06:00] really want to do

[01:06:02] what they're saying

[01:06:04] I'm just saying that in my

[01:06:06] experience I'm not

[01:06:08] seeing those

[01:06:10] goals translated

[01:06:12] deep in the

[01:06:14] bowels of these large organizations

[01:06:16] in a way

[01:06:18] that's actionable for

[01:06:20] the local manager or the

[01:06:22] local procurement

[01:06:24] specialists to

[01:06:26] put

[01:06:28] planet and people over profit

[01:06:30] let me give you an analogy

[01:06:32] in the university world that I work

[01:06:34] in everyone talks about the need

[01:06:36] to be interdisciplinary

[01:06:38] transdisciplinary

[01:06:40] every college president

[01:06:42] talks about that and provost and dean

[01:06:44] right but when it comes

[01:06:46] to promotion and tenure

[01:06:48] decisions

[01:06:50] it's really about

[01:06:52] what journal have you published in

[01:06:54] your collaborators you

[01:06:56] as the lead-off

[01:06:58] and the impact rating

[01:07:00] now that may have been too nerdy for all of

[01:07:02] you guys to understand

[01:07:04] but the point is

[01:07:06] that the C-suite in the university

[01:07:08] and what their goals are

[01:07:10] is not translated down

[01:07:12] into the mechanics

[01:07:14] of how university professors are

[01:07:16] being rewarded and so

[01:07:18] it's a university analogy

[01:07:20] of what I see happening in

[01:07:22] the business sector

[01:07:24] around sustainability

[01:07:26] regenerative

[01:07:28] agriculture the talk

[01:07:30] that we're having now

[01:07:32] I just want to sort of

[01:07:34] pull back that curtain and say

[01:07:36] what motivates the people

[01:07:38] on a day-to-day basis who are running

[01:07:40] the organization

[01:07:42] to make the changes that

[01:07:44] we need and if they're

[01:07:46] not motivated and rewarded

[01:07:48] to do so then

[01:07:50] again it's all talk

[01:07:52] I think these are all fantastic points

[01:07:54] and I just wanted to maybe share a few follow-on

[01:07:56] so I just wanted to

[01:07:58] reiterate the importance

[01:08:00] of the kind of convening forms

[01:08:02] that both Danny and Debbie run

[01:08:04] having a space so I myself

[01:08:06] represent Oatly, I'm a member

[01:08:08] of the CSO Foo Tank group that

[01:08:10] Danny just mentioned and I also

[01:08:12] represent Oatly in a number of

[01:08:14] what we call you know pre-competitive

[01:08:16] or the sort of co-operative type of

[01:08:18] that Danny mentioned. I think that those

[01:08:20] spaces are invaluable as companies

[01:08:22] figure out what their

[01:08:24] role is in this very complex system

[01:08:26] so we've acknowledged that there's complexity

[01:08:28] we've acknowledged that there is not a clear

[01:08:30] way to communicate this to consumers

[01:08:32] and we've acknowledged that there are not any obvious answers

[01:08:34] and that this is a difficult

[01:08:36] these are all difficult things we're trying to get done

[01:08:38] the value of those kinds of spaces

[01:08:40] I can't overestimate

[01:08:42] and the fact that they are

[01:08:44] usually run according to Chatham House rules

[01:08:46] that you do feel safe because

[01:08:48] you have to have a space where you can talk about

[01:08:50] things and not just

[01:08:52] just Oatly share the successes

[01:08:54] and not share your challenges because if you don't share your challenges

[01:08:56] you never overcome them and I just

[01:08:58] I cannot emphasize enough how important it is

[01:09:00] to have those forums.

[01:09:02] Danny, you will tell me if you don't want me

[01:09:04] to talk about this but I just wanted to give

[01:09:06] an example of an

[01:09:08] event that Danny and Foo Tank convened

[01:09:10] it was in the run up

[01:09:12] to both the Glasgow, the Climate

[01:09:14] Crisis and also the UN Food Systems Global Summit

[01:09:16] and a lot of companies

[01:09:18] like mine were feeling like

[01:09:20] the conversation between those two forums

[01:09:22] was not being linked enough

[01:09:24] and that this like the imperative of acknowledging

[01:09:26] that the global food system

[01:09:28] was simultaneously one of the leading

[01:09:30] causes of the climate crisis that we're in

[01:09:32] and also held the potential to

[01:09:34] offer some of the most powerful solutions

[01:09:36] was not being surfaced enough at those forums

[01:09:38] and so Foo Tank

[01:09:40] convened a conversation among

[01:09:42] mission driven food companies including

[01:09:44] Oley, we

[01:09:46] co-hosted the thing. To really talk about

[01:09:48] what messages did we want policymakers

[01:09:50] to hear in this space

[01:09:52] and the enthusiasm

[01:09:54] with which companies responded and I think we had

[01:09:56] something like 60 or 70 companies

[01:09:58] say we want to be part of this conversation

[01:10:00] and can we magnify a common voice

[01:10:02] that was an incredibly powerful

[01:10:04] tool that we had and so I just want to say

[01:10:06] and I'm sure it is very much the same for the ecosystem

[01:10:08] services consortium

[01:10:10] as well like that

[01:10:12] coherent voice from multiple companies driving in the same direction

[01:10:14] is very very powerful.

[01:10:16] Evo, I want to see if you want to respond

[01:10:18] to anything that's been

[01:10:20] said it's a lot and I know

[01:10:22] you also had a follow up question for

[01:10:24] Julie as well. One thing I wanted

[01:10:26] to follow up on of what Judy

[01:10:28] shared earlier and also I want to appreciate

[01:10:30] that openness of sharing your approach because

[01:10:32] it is very tricky in this whole

[01:10:34] sustainability regeneration space

[01:10:36] to go into the details there

[01:10:38] is a question on

[01:10:40] because the outcome based approach

[01:10:42] is one that we very much believe in

[01:10:44] we also see there's

[01:10:46] so much need for more technology

[01:10:48] still to be developed to actually make that

[01:10:50] work for us to be able to quantify

[01:10:52] as well as we would like to

[01:10:54] but if we now

[01:10:56] sort of then bring it back to

[01:10:58] I think Kathleen's point, okay well

[01:11:00] she's in Arizona and

[01:11:02] there's only certain targets

[01:11:04] that can be reached in terms of carbon

[01:11:06] for example for farmers there

[01:11:08] how do we think about

[01:11:10] benchmarks so

[01:11:12] because we don't really want

[01:11:14] to get in a situation where let's say

[01:11:16] we have very very strong land

[01:11:18] stewards and they figure out

[01:11:20] a way how to put so much carbon into

[01:11:22] Arizona soils and so much biodiversity

[01:11:24] into Arizona natural

[01:11:26] desert soils not knowing so much the

[01:11:28] ecosystem in Arizona that

[01:11:30] in the end we change the ecosystem through it

[01:11:32] right this is also not what we want

[01:11:34] actually the ecosystem to be

[01:11:36] as it is

[01:11:38] and so

[01:11:40] basically a question I think

[01:11:42] what we need to get to is to have

[01:11:44] benchmarks basically

[01:11:46] field level benchmarks

[01:11:48] of regeneration where

[01:11:50] farmers can be supported

[01:11:52] on the journey towards that benchmark

[01:11:54] so for example if we take carbon as

[01:11:56] a simple one so

[01:11:58] we need to support farmers as they're

[01:12:00] building up soil carbon up to a certain

[01:12:02] benchmark that we identify

[01:12:04] that are that is suitable

[01:12:06] to the climate and soil type

[01:12:08] that we have and then

[01:12:10] we need to support farmers to maintain that

[01:12:12] as well right because this is in the end

[01:12:14] where we want that carbon to stay

[01:12:16] in the ground and so in that way

[01:12:18] we need to go beyond what

[01:12:20] the voluntary carbon markets can

[01:12:22] offer and probably

[01:12:24] as companies then pay farmers

[01:12:26] as they are heading towards

[01:12:28] that benchmark as they are maintaining

[01:12:30] that benchmark over time

[01:12:32] and this way

[01:12:34] no matter where farmers are

[01:12:36] and so what the ecosystem allows

[01:12:38] them to do they

[01:12:40] can receive the funds that they

[01:12:42] that are fair to them

[01:12:44] and so basically

[01:12:46] I believe this is one of these

[01:12:48] infrastructure pieces that we

[01:12:50] as a sector need to

[01:12:52] solve there's one system that I

[01:12:54] am aware of that is

[01:12:56] developed by the University of Wageningen

[01:12:58] in the Netherlands the soil navigator

[01:13:00] and we're working very closely with them

[01:13:02] but it's sort of the first system

[01:13:04] that I am aware of and I just

[01:13:06] think it's important that we bring this into a conversation

[01:13:08] because in the end otherwise we get

[01:13:10] to a point where farmers build up

[01:13:12] to a certain level of carbon

[01:13:14] for example and then

[01:13:16] can't be paid more which is a problem

[01:13:18] we already see sort of working with

[01:13:20] some of the pioneers in the organic

[01:13:22] space that they say well it's great

[01:13:24] but we can't really pay our farmers much more

[01:13:26] I had one more comment that I wanted to make in response to

[01:13:28] what Kathleen had said earlier is it okay if I

[01:13:30] Yes Julia please do yeah absolutely

[01:13:32] quickly sorry for that so Kathleen

[01:13:34] I thought your point about how

[01:13:36] you ensure that commitments of a company

[01:13:38] trickle down internally in a company

[01:13:40] and particularly I mean we are not a

[01:13:42] large company of course we're maybe not

[01:13:44] a startup anymore but we're not a huge

[01:13:46] corporation but I would say

[01:13:48] engaging employees in a company

[01:13:50] to feel like they are empowered to offer

[01:13:52] solutions and to feel like they are part

[01:13:54] of the need to achieve these goals I think is essential

[01:13:56] only happens to invest

[01:13:58] and I myself invest a lot in

[01:14:00] internal education for our employees

[01:14:02] like I teach a sustainability seminar

[01:14:04] monthly in our

[01:14:06] company it's open to every employee

[01:14:08] we have made designed special

[01:14:10] programs to engage our

[01:14:12] factory workers in the sustainability

[01:14:14] mission of the company offering

[01:14:16] educational tools trying to

[01:14:18] create a culture where employees

[01:14:20] feel like they are responsible for being

[01:14:22] part of the solution we align

[01:14:24] on employee

[01:14:26] self set goals including goals

[01:14:28] around sustainability those are examples

[01:14:30] that are specific to OATLE but I think it is

[01:14:32] a very important point to raise that

[01:14:34] you kind of just project a message

[01:14:36] out from the C-suite and sort of expect every

[01:14:38] aspect of the company to get on board I do

[01:14:40] think investing in a culture of sustainability

[01:14:42] and supporting employees to

[01:14:44] feel like they have the tools and

[01:14:46] the knowledge and the resources to achieve that will be

[01:14:48] a very important part of success

[01:14:50] we really need to think about

[01:14:52] this idea around the ethics

[01:14:54] of valorizing

[01:14:56] ecosystem services and

[01:14:58] one thing Evo and I have spoken

[01:15:00] about quite a bit is how do we ensure

[01:15:02] that

[01:15:04] everyone wins right that the

[01:15:06] farmers win that the people

[01:15:08] that are

[01:15:10] across the supply web

[01:15:12] win that it's not just the companies

[01:15:14] it's not just bad actors who can

[01:15:16] game the system so I

[01:15:18] love to throw that out to think about

[01:15:20] what are the ethics around this

[01:15:22] and how do we ensure

[01:15:24] right now that

[01:15:26] everyone wins I think

[01:15:28] Evo touched on this and so I'll start there

[01:15:30] and then build on to your question

[01:15:32] Daniel I think the imperative

[01:15:34] here is that markets

[01:15:36] are a tool

[01:15:38] right markets are literally a tool

[01:15:40] we can use to help transition

[01:15:42] farmers and ranchers

[01:15:44] to more resilient

[01:15:46] systems right regenerative

[01:15:48] agricultural systems

[01:15:50] I don't think we should view them

[01:15:52] as the only

[01:15:54] tool and I don't think we could view them as

[01:15:56] the end right there

[01:15:58] a means to an end if we

[01:16:00] do that and if we design

[01:16:02] the market programs

[01:16:04] so that producers

[01:16:06] are the focus

[01:16:08] right they are made more resilient

[01:16:10] then literally everyone

[01:16:12] wins because

[01:16:14] unless we can engage producers

[01:16:16] where they are at make them

[01:16:18] more resilient and produce

[01:16:20] the outcomes that

[01:16:22] the corporates have committed to achieve

[01:16:24] for instance right and do it

[01:16:26] in a way that everyone in that

[01:16:28] value web participates

[01:16:30] and contributes because

[01:16:32] again this is it's going

[01:16:34] to take collective action for us to get there

[01:16:36] then I think we can be successful

[01:16:38] I do think your question

[01:16:40] but well there's two in there

[01:16:42] how do we prevent some companies

[01:16:44] from gaming this or individual

[01:16:46] actors I think there will always

[01:16:48] be bad actors in every

[01:16:50] environment we work in I think

[01:16:52] the important point though of

[01:16:54] transparency and

[01:16:56] collective action almost

[01:16:58] insists that we

[01:17:00] are transparent about what we're doing

[01:17:02] and then you can see you can peak

[01:17:04] under their hood and see behind the curtain

[01:17:06] and ensure that what is happening

[01:17:08] is in fact valid

[01:17:10] and so I think that just

[01:17:12] takes checks and balances within any

[01:17:14] system or program

[01:17:16] in terms of valorizing these

[01:17:18] ecosystem services I think

[01:17:20] they are currently viewed

[01:17:22] in most markets in society

[01:17:24] as externalities and they

[01:17:26] can't be right we

[01:17:28] have to value

[01:17:30] them and value the

[01:17:32] people who help protect them

[01:17:34] and enhance them and then

[01:17:36] restore them and do a better

[01:17:38] job of making sure that

[01:17:40] we have a good

[01:17:42] market for them and we

[01:17:44] can't be wrong about that

[01:17:46] and put price tags on them

[01:17:48] I do worry about the potential

[01:17:50] implications right of who gets

[01:17:52] paid but that comes down to

[01:17:54] I think the system design

[01:17:56] how you design a system to

[01:17:58] ensure that no one company

[01:18:00] is making a profit right

[01:18:02] that this isn't a profit

[01:18:04] making venture that

[01:18:06] is really taking the action

[01:18:08] starting first and foremost

[01:18:10] with the farmers and ranchers who in this case

[01:18:12] right if we're talking about

[01:18:14] natural services for mag

[01:18:16] are making the investments and taking

[01:18:18] the risk and making them change

[01:18:20] Evo I know that you've spent a lot

[01:18:22] of time working with farmers

[01:18:24] to understand what their needs are

[01:18:26] you've been hosting a whole series

[01:18:28] of events where you've been interviewing

[01:18:30] people, climate farmers has

[01:18:32] been testing a lot of the different

[01:18:34] platforms that are out there

[01:18:36] around this so maybe

[01:18:38] if you could speak a little bit to

[01:18:40] how you all are thinking about this

[01:18:42] and giving some specific examples

[01:18:44] on what you've been

[01:18:46] testing and where you see the

[01:18:48] opportunities of challenges

[01:18:50] Honestly it's the question that sort of really keeps me up

[01:18:52] at night it's something that I'm

[01:18:54] quite worried about

[01:18:56] I think is at the core of our work

[01:18:58] because the potential is incredible

[01:19:00] on the one hand

[01:19:02] the urgency is so big

[01:19:04] on climate

[01:19:06] and on the other planetary

[01:19:08] boundaries that we've crossed

[01:19:10] but also the potential

[01:19:12] for transformation

[01:19:14] is incredible

[01:19:16] I mean who would have thought a couple of years ago

[01:19:18] that the leading

[01:19:20] FMCG companies in the world

[01:19:22] would start talking about regenerative

[01:19:24] like that's a whole different level

[01:19:26] and it's so promising

[01:19:28] and I'm just

[01:19:30] so worried that we might not

[01:19:32] use that potential

[01:19:34] so yes very very very

[01:19:36] relevant I think we

[01:19:38] it's a combination of so many

[01:19:40] aspects so we need to

[01:19:42] we need to hold

[01:19:44] each other, need to hold ourselves accountable

[01:19:46] and in order to hold ourselves accountable

[01:19:48] we need common standards and in order to have

[01:19:50] common standards we need to have the technologies

[01:19:52] and we need to have the common understanding

[01:19:54] and all of this

[01:19:56] needs to happen within one or two years

[01:19:58] but this is a conversation that takes place

[01:20:00] over usually 10, 20, 30, 50 years

[01:20:02] right but with regenerative

[01:20:04] we see all of that condensed

[01:20:06] in an extremely short timeline

[01:20:08] and so this is

[01:20:10] for me always the question like what do we

[01:20:12] how should we employ our limited

[01:20:14] resources to make the biggest

[01:20:16] contribution to that

[01:20:18] very accelerated conversation

[01:20:20] because especially

[01:20:22] if we look at the voluntary carbon market

[01:20:24] it's going to it's a matter of

[01:20:26] years until we have

[01:20:28] a massive scandal

[01:20:30] somebody has not

[01:20:32] properly followed

[01:20:34] procedure in creating carbon certificates

[01:20:36] and we lose faith in the market

[01:20:38] and that would be a pity so

[01:20:40] we're

[01:20:42] trying to do that on a number of different

[01:20:44] in a number of different ways

[01:20:46] on the one hand through the

[01:20:48] through the conference that we run

[01:20:50] annually to sort of

[01:20:52] create common positions by

[01:20:54] and practitioners towards

[01:20:56] the industry because we believe it needs

[01:20:58] to be bottom up as much as possible

[01:21:00] and then

[01:21:02] the other thing for the next

[01:21:04] COP we are planning

[01:21:06] sort of to have an alliance

[01:21:08] of partners presenting a common

[01:21:10] standard of integrating

[01:21:12] agriculture into the carbon market

[01:21:14] what is important there beyond

[01:21:16] of course sort of international standards

[01:21:18] and I think we need a

[01:21:20] reporting standard for

[01:21:22] the industry for the food industry

[01:21:24] sort of very much in line with what Julie was

[01:21:26] was describing but in order to do

[01:21:28] that we need a common understanding

[01:21:30] of what we should measure so the metrics

[01:21:32] that we have just talked about and which technologies

[01:21:34] actually allow us to do

[01:21:36] that or in the absence of technologies

[01:21:38] we will work with

[01:21:40] modeling such as the cool farm tool or similar

[01:21:42] so I think

[01:21:44] really it's these different

[01:21:46] these aspects it's

[01:21:48] the carbon markets and safeguarding

[01:21:50] the integrity of the carbon markets

[01:21:52] it's ensuring that the

[01:21:54] term regenerative goes out of

[01:21:56] is it basically a cheap organic

[01:21:58] certificate right now

[01:22:00] that you don't have to nobody checks back

[01:22:02] so we need to make sure that there's

[01:22:04] there's a common understanding of this

[01:22:06] that is outcome based that is not

[01:22:08] based on a

[01:22:10] an expensive certification

[01:22:12] scheme but similar as with the carbon

[01:22:14] markets and I think the third thing

[01:22:16] finally is

[01:22:18] we need

[01:22:20] and I know this is more of a European position

[01:22:22] than the US American

[01:22:24] I think we need governments to come in there

[01:22:26] and help us regulate some of this

[01:22:28] so we need to have somebody

[01:22:30] checking up on whether

[01:22:32] what we're doing makes sense but

[01:22:34] again in order to do that

[01:22:36] and in order to do it in the short time frame

[01:22:38] we need to pilot it in the private

[01:22:40] markets and then have very

[01:22:42] visionary public policy

[01:22:44] leaders that are going to

[01:22:46] and hold the industry accountable so

[01:22:48] it's going to be

[01:22:50] an incredible right and it is

[01:22:52] an incredible right already to do

[01:22:54] this and to do this well and I really

[01:22:56] appreciate sort of having seeing that there's

[01:22:58] so many other actors also

[01:23:00] in the US doing such great work

[01:23:02] Danny would love to

[01:23:04] hear a follow up from you about

[01:23:06] this and you know it was interesting

[01:23:08] even that you brought in you know the idea of policy

[01:23:10] but the policy coming often

[01:23:12] later than private institutions can

[01:23:14] act so how do you think

[01:23:16] we can assure this is a level playing

[01:23:18] field and the right people benefit

[01:23:20] Sure and I think Eva brought up some great points

[01:23:22] about not just the next COP

[01:23:24] but the next two COPs being

[01:23:26] the United Nations Climate Change

[01:23:28] Conference being very very important

[01:23:30] bringing food to the table

[01:23:32] so to speak in a bigger way

[01:23:34] than it ever has been at COP26

[01:23:36] in Glasgow Food Tank

[01:23:38] and many other organizations really tried

[01:23:40] to do that but it certainly wasn't enough

[01:23:42] so having a food

[01:23:44] day devoted there will be

[01:23:46] pavilions devoted to talking about food and agriculture

[01:23:48] those things are really important to get

[01:23:50] policy makers and private industry

[01:23:52] on the same page the private sector

[01:23:54] on the same page what has not been part

[01:23:56] of this conversation though that I think

[01:23:58] needs to be brought up is that

[01:24:00] Eva mentioned something about regenerative

[01:24:02] being sort of like right now a cheap organic

[01:24:04] certificate but what we're

[01:24:06] missing as part of this conversation

[01:24:08] is that regenerative practices have been

[01:24:10] practiced by indigenous peoples

[01:24:12] and it would be great if there was someone from that community

[01:24:14] those kinds of communities as part

[01:24:16] of this conversation for millennia

[01:24:18] and they have been ignored they have not

[01:24:20] been compensated they have taken

[01:24:22] many many risks they have experimented

[01:24:24] in fields they have done all these

[01:24:26] things to you know

[01:24:28] ensure that now we as white folks

[01:24:30] can use regenerative practices

[01:24:32] but I fear I fear

[01:24:34] that we're not only that regenerative

[01:24:36] is being co-opted by

[01:24:38] indigenous peoples in business but we

[01:24:40] as a lot of white folks

[01:24:42] are co-opting it from indigenous

[01:24:44] folks who have been practicing it

[01:24:46] and that they need to be acknowledged for the

[01:24:48] services that they have

[01:24:50] done that have benefited us all

[01:24:52] actually Danny and I are on the same

[01:24:54] page in my courses now

[01:24:56] I have a special section each class

[01:24:58] called the forgotten he

[01:25:00] as in how we define

[01:25:02] think about sustainability it's economics

[01:25:04] it's environment and it's equity

[01:25:06] and many of us

[01:25:08] in teaching practice talk about

[01:25:10] the three legs of the stool right

[01:25:12] but the stools wobbly because

[01:25:14] we haven't done enough on equity

[01:25:16] we short changed equity

[01:25:18] and as we go forward

[01:25:20] and think about carbon markets

[01:25:22] we think about regenerative

[01:25:24] we think about ecosystem services

[01:25:26] and the new adventures were

[01:25:28] all in I just want to raise

[01:25:30] the point of equity all

[01:25:32] the farmers I talked to

[01:25:34] are anxious about equity

[01:25:36] with other people

[01:25:38] in the agricultural

[01:25:40] ecosystem are they going to win

[01:25:42] are they going to do a lot of hard changes

[01:25:44] but the benefits are really going to be

[01:25:46] reaped by middlemen

[01:25:48] in market construction who are

[01:25:50] going to really benefit from it

[01:25:52] I hear from

[01:25:54] organic pioneers

[01:25:56] who say great people are going to

[01:25:58] have a benchmark now I've been doing

[01:26:00] the right thing by my soils for 40

[01:26:02] years the additive

[01:26:04] amount of work I can do

[01:26:06] is very small compared to someone

[01:26:08] who hasn't been doing that hard work for

[01:26:10] 40 years is that equitable

[01:26:12] I hear from

[01:26:14] really small scale farmers

[01:26:16] and

[01:26:18] indigenous farmers which make up the most

[01:26:20] of the farmers in Arizona

[01:26:22] the state that I live in now

[01:26:24] that they have had problems

[01:26:26] historically in accessing

[01:26:28] market schemes so I think

[01:26:30] as we go forward in these

[01:26:32] new adventures that

[01:26:34] forgotten E needs to be

[01:26:36] the prominent E

[01:26:38] and we need to

[01:26:40] learn from our past mistakes

[01:26:42] do you have any suggestions

[01:26:44] and I'm throwing this out to everyone

[01:26:46] but maybe Kathleen giving all the work

[01:26:48] you've done in this area of suggestions

[01:26:50] of how we can make sure that E is not

[01:26:52] forgotten and is

[01:26:54] included in the right way

[01:26:56] in markets whether they are regulated

[01:26:58] and whether the policy is involved or not

[01:27:00] you know is this something the private sector

[01:27:02] can be doing here ahead of policy coming in

[01:27:04] the most important thing

[01:27:06] to do from the start

[01:27:08] is make sure that the people around

[01:27:10] decision making tables

[01:27:12] whether it's in government

[01:27:14] whether it's in the private sector

[01:27:16] wherever that those

[01:27:18] faces around the table reflect

[01:27:20] the full demographics

[01:27:22] of the people engaged

[01:27:24] in food systems work

[01:27:26] because we need the diverse voices

[01:27:28] and the diverse experiences

[01:27:30] to help mold systems

[01:27:32] that are going to be productive

[01:27:34] for the future.

[01:27:36] Yeah I mean this is

[01:27:38] acknowledging the indigenous roots

[01:27:40] and the BIPOC roots of Virginia agriculture

[01:27:42] I think is essential. I mean I actually

[01:27:44] started my career in that arena

[01:27:46] both my masters and PhD work were actually

[01:27:48] on indigenous agricultural strategies

[01:27:50] in Arizona

[01:27:52] because I went to U of A for my

[01:27:54] graduate studies and also in Latin America

[01:27:56] and then I have to say most of my career

[01:27:58] has actually been in international development

[01:28:00] working with smallholder farmers

[01:28:02] and other small scale land managers

[01:28:04] around the world in development

[01:28:06] so I think that this is essential

[01:28:08] I would say two things

[01:28:10] from Oatley's perspective one is that

[01:28:12] within the frame of our regenerative work

[01:28:14] that I've already described

[01:28:16] we do have a specific project

[01:28:18] right now that is working with BIPOC

[01:28:20] farmers in the U.S. Midwest

[01:28:22] to learn from

[01:28:24] what they already know about how to manage

[01:28:26] holistic systems in which people in nature

[01:28:28] are not separated and to

[01:28:30] basically center them in the conversation

[01:28:32] their learnings and what they know

[01:28:34] about food production and their own landscapes

[01:28:36] so that is something that we are

[01:28:38] investing in supporting

[01:28:40] but even beyond that and more broadly I would say

[01:28:42] you know sort of the E

[01:28:44] of equity in farmers we start with

[01:28:46] farmers and this summer

[01:28:48] I'll be visiting with farmers that we work with

[01:28:50] in Iowa, Minnesota and then in Saskatchewan

[01:28:52] in Manitoba and Alberta

[01:28:54] in Canada where there is a similar

[01:28:56] history of colonialism

[01:28:58] and we start by walking in the door and saying

[01:29:00] hello you are an equal partner

[01:29:02] in this conversation to us what is it that you need

[01:29:04] let's have that conversation

[01:29:06] and I think that that is I mean it sounds trite perhaps

[01:29:08] and perhaps you want to roll your eyes

[01:29:10] about that but you know we sincerely come to the

[01:29:12] table thinking that the farmers in the systems

[01:29:14] with whom we work are our equal partners

[01:29:16] and that whatever solutions we come up

[01:29:18] with will only work if they work for them as well

[01:29:20] as working for our company and working for consumers

[01:29:22] and you start by asking questions and by being

[01:29:24] humble and that is the approach that we take

[01:29:26] so we

[01:29:28] we are also concerned about

[01:29:30] equity and the fact that

[01:29:32] we don't have within

[01:29:34] most mainstream agriculture a lot of those

[01:29:36] BIPOC and underserved voices

[01:29:38] right so we have been

[01:29:40] deliberately doing outreach and

[01:29:42] fundraising because what we

[01:29:44] have found is the BIPOC

[01:29:46] underserved groups that we work with

[01:29:48] don't have the capacity

[01:29:50] to really engage with us

[01:29:52] in most cases so

[01:29:54] we've been working on fundraising first and foremost

[01:29:56] to build their capacity

[01:29:58] and then to

[01:30:00] identify the challenges

[01:30:02] of not only market

[01:30:04] based programs that don't allow

[01:30:06] for their participation

[01:30:08] right but what their challenges

[01:30:10] are right and in some of you know

[01:30:12] working with for instance the Pueblo

[01:30:14] and Navajo ranchers some of them don't have

[01:30:16] access to water

[01:30:18] right on their ranch and have to

[01:30:20] literally truck it in

[01:30:22] so identifying what their challenges

[01:30:24] are first and foremost

[01:30:26] ensuring they have capacity

[01:30:28] is the way we are approaching that

[01:30:30] so that we build capacity

[01:30:32] with their organizations

[01:30:34] all the way down to the farmers

[01:30:36] and ranchers they work with

[01:30:38] and then ensuring that we grow together

[01:30:40] the capacity

[01:30:42] to develop programs that

[01:30:44] work for them

[01:30:46] their different production systems

[01:30:48] and we have to meet them where they are

[01:30:50] so that's the way we've been approaching it

[01:30:52] but it starts first and foremost

[01:30:54] with fundraising and capacity

[01:30:56] what is the advice to brands

[01:30:58] on this and Julie would love to hear

[01:31:00] how you approaching this

[01:31:02] everything seems a little bit too basic

[01:31:04] and a bit too simplified

[01:31:06] so how do you do it in a nuance

[01:31:08] and communicative way that's effective

[01:31:10] I mean you know it only does this through a combination

[01:31:12] of course of our quirky humor and brand

[01:31:14] presence and also having rigorous science

[01:31:16] based like basis for what we

[01:31:18] communicate so we communicated in ways that

[01:31:20] I think are eye catching and obviously we've built the entire

[01:31:22] brand around a very engaging

[01:31:24] identity and we do

[01:31:26] things like ISO compliant life cycle

[01:31:28] analysis we do third party

[01:31:30] monitored carbon footprint and climate

[01:31:32] footprinting for our products and then we put those on

[01:31:34] pack and we make that information

[01:31:36] available to customers and we do a very

[01:31:38] very thorough sustainability report which

[01:31:40] we share widely and we

[01:31:42] try to make sure that customers

[01:31:44] have the information they need to draw the conclusion

[01:31:46] that in many cases plant based alternatives

[01:31:48] are better for themselves and better for the planet

[01:31:50] and we give them the information to make that choice

[01:31:59] so we hope you enjoyed

[01:32:01] that dig into the carbon neutrality

[01:32:03] debate it's obviously a first

[01:32:05] conversation we're having on this so hopefully

[01:32:07] we'll get to dig into it more in

[01:32:09] season 2 but what we'd love for you to do

[01:32:11] for this week's activity

[01:32:13] is to let us know

[01:32:15] if you see a food product

[01:32:17] or other product that says

[01:32:19] that it is carbon neutral

[01:32:21] or even carbon negative does that impact

[01:32:23] your decision to purchase it

[01:32:25] let us know on social media

[01:32:27] take a screenshot of this episode

[01:32:29] and post it on your Instagram and tag us

[01:32:31] we'd love to hear from you

[01:32:33] Yes and

[01:32:35] remember to please rate and review

[01:32:37] us if you are enjoying this podcast

[01:32:39] it means the world to us

[01:32:41] and it helps out so much with the

[01:32:43] algorithms we will

[01:32:45] see you next week for our

[01:32:47] final episode of this season

[01:32:49] Yes a final

[01:32:51] and special live recording

[01:32:53] from Expo West so thanks again

[01:32:55] for listening

[01:33:05] New Food Order is sponsored by FoodShot Global

[01:33:07] and New Hope Network

[01:33:09] and was brought to you by Agfunder

[01:33:11] Food and Tech Connect

[01:33:13] This episode was produced by Cam Gray

[01:33:15] and Anadolf Evans

[01:33:17] and the project manager was Patrick Carter

[01:33:19] Original Theme Music

[01:33:21] is by Rodrigo Barbera

[01:33:23] and Art is by Lola Ningen

[01:33:25] Thank you for listening, see you next time